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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
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TRWord
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03/12/2011 04:34 |
I know that this is a touchy subject but let us all discuss it dispassionately and in love.
Let’s remind ourselves that from the very beginning Our “all knowing” and loving Father admonished Adam against the knowledge of good and evil. Today as a consequence of Adam’s transgression most believers see the belief in evil, hell and the devil as absolute essentials in gaining the knowledge of God. The Bible says that we cannot know God without the Holy Spirit. The problem is we are “in sin” and “in sin” it’s most difficult to know the Holy Spirit in fact “in sin” we don’t even know what sin is. We believe that sin is transgression against the law but man was “in sin” long before Moses.
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. (Romans 5:12-14KJV)
Lanny wrote: “Certainly no one can deny the reality of EVIL.”
Yes we are surrounded by evil, but Jesus commanded:
Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment. ( John 7:24KJV)
What is righteous judgement?
It’s holding steadfastly to the truth in spite of the appearance.
What is the truth?
God is the only player in His universe; He is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient.
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. (John 8:31-32KJV)
NO FAITH IS REQUIRED TO BELIEVE WHAT WE SEE.
The Day of Our Lord; This is our hope, the day when Alleluia: “the Lord God omnipotent reigneth” (Revelation 19:6) This is what we await.
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. (Romans 8:23-25KJV)
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Ted C
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03/12/2011 07:58 |
Are you saying men actually commit evil but only because they believe in good and evil? Or are you saying that there really is no evil because it doesn't exist, regardless of appearances?
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Lanny Carlson
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03/12/2011 10:06 |
"Lanny, are you a supernatural being?"
Well, Ted, some people have called me the devil, and worse,
and I've often been told to go to the devil's abode -
but, no, I am NOT a "supernaturaal being"!
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Craig from Illinois
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03/12/2011 11:09 |
I was only joking! LOL..... Actually Lanny... it's great to see you posting again after a bit of a "holiday" earlier this year.
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Ted C
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03/12/2011 11:55 |
Lanny, nice!
My thought is that as people who were created in God's image, a little lower than Elohim, we qualify as being supernatural beings.
If we define "supernatural" as being existing in the spiritual realm, then yes - people, angelic beings and God - all are supernatural entities. If we define "supernatural" as being omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent, then only God would qualify. I certainly don't think the devil - as a created angelic being (I believe Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 both describe him) is anything close to all-powerful or creating a toaistic duality with God.
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Lanny Carlson
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03/12/2011 19:53 |
Ted,
As is often the case,
much discussion here is a matter of semantics,
I would prefer to say that I am a SPIRITUAL being,
which embodies the idea of being created in God's image,
having within us what the Quakers call a divine spark,
sharing in a limited way in the nature of God.
I hesitated to write that in my last post for fear some would misinterpret it
and put a "New Age-y" spin on it.)
I tend to think of a SUPERNATURAL being as an invisible, non-corporeal being.
Angels and demons and satan would be in that category,
if indeed they exist - which, of course, is where we tend to disagree.
(Though I can't prove it one way or the other,
and am ultimately agnostic on the subject,
I don't feel the necessity of believing in them,
and think they are emphasized way too much by some people.
Even if they exist, they are not - as you rightly say - equal to God,
(and maybe that's what TRW is getting at -
so often, believing in "evil beings" gives them a God-like power
they simply do not possess.)
God is ultimately beyond full human comprehension or understanding or definition -
to me, God is the ultimate Source and Sustainer of all things,
and even thinking of God as a "supernatural being" is too limiting.
More than a mere "being," God is - as Tillich says -
the "Ground of Being" or as John Macquarrie suggested, "Being" itself.
(But that's perhaps getting too philosophical and too heady
and is too much the product of my seminary training,
so perhaps I should end there!)
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Davidwayne Lackey
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03/13/2011 00:37 |
When Jesus was being tempted, Who was doing the tempting? Was it not the Devil who Jesus also called Satan? And the Demons that the Disciples cast out, are they not real also. Evil is more than what man does although man does evil. There are real spirits that do and incite evil just as the Devil tried to incite Jesus in the desert. Did not Jesus warn about the temptations of the evil one in the Lord's prayer?
Mat 6:13 And don't let us yield to temptation, but rescue us from the evil one. [For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.]
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TRWord
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03/13/2011 10:13 |
Davidwayne wrote;
“When Jesus was being tempted, Who was doing the tempting? Was it not the Devil who Jesus also called Satan?”
Jesus taught His disciples the gospel of the kingdom of God. Using several parables and allegories He labored to bring this spiritual understanding closer to our grasp. He also labored to correct many of the religious misconceptions of His day, much to the displeasure of the Pharisee, His religious leaders. He taught that we must be motivated by the quest for truth more than the desire to protect tradition and old doctrines if we are to ever grasp this new understanding. Throughout He also made a direct correlation between Truth and this new understanding.
Matthew (4:1-11) Jesus is teaching on the nature of temptation “ what it is,” from “whence it comes” and how we should overcome it.
Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. (Matthew 4:1KJV)
The thought of the Spirit and “your idea of the devil” in cahoots together should give you pause.
The Word must be interpreted in the light of the Truth.
The misinterpretation of the “help meet” Eve, (Genesis 2:18) has led to many religious misconceptions and our misunderstanding of temptation.
Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offense unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. (Matthew 16:22-23KJV)
Davidwayne asked; “Who was doing the tempting?” but Jesus is teaching us here “what was doing the tempting,” not savoring the things of God, but those that be of men.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: (Matthew 6:13KJV)
With this part of the Lord’s prayer we are developing the awareness of Our Father as our guide and protector, we are looking to Him to lead us away from situations and circumstances that would lead us into temptation and to protect us from any consequence of the belief in good and evil.
The difference in interpretation of (Matthew 6:13) from “deliver us from evil” of the KJV to “rescue us from the evil one”of your Bible version is the reason why the KJV is the only one I use.
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Bibleman
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03/13/2011 17:37 |
In a phrase, I would say that just as Lanny would agree (from far earlier posts) that human's understanding of God developed over time, growing more and more informed from the Genesis times to the New Testament times (progressive revelation, it is called), so did our understanding of the conflict that existed, leading us to the firm conclusion that there was a personified evil presence in the world in addition to God. Lanny has a point in focusing on God, however, because focusing on the personification of evil can be counterproductive - in this, I see the truth in both TRW and Lanny's claim.
Furthermore, from the very elementary research I did on Zoroastrianism, there were some very peculiar parallels in thought. Lanny, as you believe that we can learn more from other religions (with which I would concur), so it is that in time, if Satan is a foreign concept to the ancient Hebrews (which might not necessarily be the case), then it would be a fine concept to have come together into Scripture, just as the story of Jesus' resurrection was coincidentally timed with a story - the name escapes me - from Greek literature about a man who died, only to be resurrected, I believe, 10 days later. (I am seriously rusty, but I'll run into the source eventually; I've been diving into Greek philosophy lately.)
in this aspect, I believe God chose to utilize people's greatest dreams (which Greek literature often contains) to bring souls to Christ.
and that is the wind of my opinion on "progressive revelation" in regard to evil and its concept in Christian theology today. Thanks guys!
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Davidwayne Lackey
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03/13/2011 23:52 |
TRW,
When I asked who Jesus was talking to in the desert you did not give a direct answer to that question but side stepped it but going into something about parables. The parables are a whole different area, each parable with it's own lessons. Jesus was talking to Satan in the desert and identified Satan as the Devil. This was not a parable but a real happening and written obviously as such.
Satan is also labeled as the Tempter and I will post more about that to show that there is a real Devil and how Scripture shows this in the King James as well since you are partial to that version.There is more than one way that Scripture talks about temptation. There is the temptation we are prone to by nature as in James 1:13-15, and the temptation brought on by Satan and Demons.
Here Paul talks about the tempter. The obvious part of this passage is Paul is talking about Satan as a real entity. Paul is not talking about just temptation but a tempter that does the tempting, otherwise Paul would not say tempter.
1Th 3:5 That is why, when I could bear it no longer, I sent Timothy to find out whether your faith was still strong. I was afraid that the tempter had gotten the best of you and that our work had been useless.
Here is where we tempt ourselves because of our fallen nature:
Jas 1:13 And remember, when you are being tempted, do not say, "God is tempting me." God is never tempted to do wrong, and He never tempts anyone else.
Jas 1:14 Temptation comes from our own desires, which entice us and drag us away.
Jas 1:15 These desires give birth to sinful actions. And when sin is allowed to grow, it gives birth to death.
Notice here where is says Cain belonged to the Evil one and in the King James version that wicked one. It says wicked one not wicked thing or desire. That means the wicked one must be someone. Scripture identifies the wicked one as Satan or the Devil. Obviously a real entity.
1Jn 3:12 We must not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and killed his brother.
Same verse in the King James version:
1Jn 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother.
The wicked one - ? p??????, from p????, labor, toil, he who distresses and torments the soul. Mark, Mar_4:15, calls him ? sata?a?, the adversary or opposer, because he resists men in all their purposes of amendment, and, to the utmost of his power opposes, in order to frustrate, the influences of Divine grace upon the heart. In the parallel place in Luke, Luk_8:12, he is called ? d?aß????, the devil, from d?aßa??e??, to shoot, or dart through. In allusion to this meaning of the name, St. Paul, Eph_6:16, speaks of the fiery Darts of the wicked one. It is worthy of remark, that the three evangelists should use each a different appellative of this mortal enemy of mankind; probably to show that the devil, with all his powers and properties, opposes every thing that tends to the salvation of the soul.
Here are some more verses in the King James version:
Mat 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
1Jn 2:13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.
1Jn 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye
are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
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