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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
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John T
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03/14/2011 21:39 |
I wholeheartedly agree with C.S. Lewis and Ted on this teaching. I have also listened to stories from a missionary named Otto Koning (the Pineapple Story) where he learned that when he prayed for God to bind and silence the power of Satan and his demons over a meeting that the natives could "hear" him. Peoples in many nations outside of the west can see and experience the battle between good and evil much clearer that we do. I think Satan uses different tactics with different peoples. Randy Alcorn and Frank Peretti also have some good information about the battle.
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Davidwayne Lackey
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03/14/2011 21:43 |
TRW you wrote:
Davidwayne is unable to accept the Truth of the omnipresence of God he is convinced in the existence of a presence (an evil one) other than God. This belief is a violation of the Truth. This is the original sin, Adam’s transgression.
TRW you are so far out in left field you cannot answer a simple question or give a coherent reply. You didn't even try for a rebuttal of the Scriptures I posted as proof of an Evil one known as Satan. Instead you give a totally false statement saying I am unable to accept the truth of the omnipresence of God. Is that meant to anger me? You succeeded for about 2 minutes. I thought you wanted a n honest and civil discussion. In stead I find you to be the exact opposite of what you claim to be. There is no honest and frank discussion from you at all. You have consistently avoided a direct answer to any straightforward question as if you are incapable and yet you can talk coherently when you want but pretend when you don't.
Believing what Scripture tells about the Evil one has nothing to do with my belief in the omnipresence of God. That is like saying believing that you and I exist is tantamount to denying the omnipresence of God since both you, me, and Satan are all created beings.
I believe I gave sufficient proof of not only the existence of the Evil one Satan but also how Satan can tempt us as well as we can tempt ourselves. If you have a real rebuttal then please be my guest. If not just don't bother. It's not a nice feeling being jerked around with.
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TRWord
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03/15/2011 05:41 |
Davidwayne wrote:
TRW you are so far out in left field you cannot answer a simple question or give a coherent reply. You didn't even try for a rebuttal of the Scriptures I posted as proof of an Evil one known as Satan. Instead you give a totally false statement saying I am unable to accept the truth of the omnipresence of God. Is that meant to anger me? You succeeded for about 2 minutes. I thought you wanted a n honest and civil discussion. In stead I find you to be the exact opposite of what you claim to be. There is no honest and frank discussion from you at all. You have consistently avoided a direct answer to any straightforward question as if you are incapable and yet you can talk coherently when you want but pretend when you don't.
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If my statement angered you I am absolutely sorry about that. This was not my intent.
I was trying to point out that “omnipresence means” to be present everywhere at the same time. Therefore accepting the Truth of the omnipresence of God should preclude the belief in any other presence but God. Since you believe that the devil is a presence apart from God, I was trying to show you that you can’t have both. If there is any other presence but God then God cease to be omnipresent. You asked the question; “Who was doing the tempting? Was it not the Devil who Jesus also called Satan?” Having accepted the Truth I could never answer that question to your satisfaction. I believe that we must interpret the scripture in the light of the Truth. In light of Truth the devil can never be a “who” the devil has to be “what.”
I also gave you the example of Jesus conversation with Peter where Jesus called Peter satan.
Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offense unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. (Matthew 16:22-23)
We also have the problem that we both use very different versions of the scripture.
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Ted C
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03/15/2011 08:32 |
Actually TR variances between the Textus Receptus (KJV) and the Codex Vaticanus & Codex Sinaiticus (NASB, NIV) run around less than five percent, and none of the differences affects major doctrine. Unless you are speaking of some other Scripture, or what portions of Scripture you consider to be inspired.
So, to clarify, God to you is kind of like the Brahman - the universal spirit who is the source of all, and encompasses good and bad?
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John T
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03/15/2011 12:20 |
Why can't god be omnipresent with other created beings in the universe? We exist, don't we, and God is still omnipresent. Cannot God create other beings, namely, angels, and exist with them? I don't think your argument makes sense. The devil and his demons are simply created creatures, fallen angels.
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Davidwayne Lackey
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03/15/2011 20:45 |
TRW you wrote:
I was trying to point out that “omnipresence means” to be present everywhere at the same time. Therefore accepting the Truth of the omnipresence of God should preclude the belief in any other presence but God.
I know the meaning of omnipresence. Only God is omnipresent. It does not preclude the belief in any other presence. If that were the case you and I would not exist since each of us is a presence.
I have never said that Satan was omnipresent. Satan as I have said is a created being as are we. I have said believing what Scripture tells about the Evil one has nothing to do with my belief in the omnipresence of God. That is like saying believing that you and I exist is tantamount to denying the omnipresence of God since both you, me, and Satan are all created beings. You have chosen to ignore what I said or do not understand what I said.
You quoted Matthew 16:21 as proof there is no Satan so you could not answer my question about Satan tempting Jesus in the desert. There is a parallel there but you have to take Matthew 16: 21 out of context to prove your contention.
Jesus talking to Peter:
Mat 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
Mat 16:22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
It's obvious that Jesus is not calling Peter the Satan in verse 23. Jesus is rebuking Peter for tempting him to not carry out His mission on the Cross. It parallels Matthew 4:10 when the real Satan tempted Jesus in the desert. This does not prove that Satan does not exist since the word Satan was at that time and still is used to denote bad things like Paul's thorn in his flesh to keep him humble and from straying as well as the real created Angel Satan. The word Satan had different meanings depending on the context in which it was used. The word Satan literally means adversary or one who opposes for both the Real Satan and other things of a situational nature like Paul's thorn in the flesh and the rebuke of Peter.
Jesus talking to the real Satan in the desert:
Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Get thee behind me, Satan - The word “Satan” literally means “an adversary,” or one who opposes us in the accomplishment of our designs.
Robertson's word pictures:
Get thee behind me, Satan (Hupage opiso mou, Satana). Just before Peter played the part of a rock in the noble confession and was given a place of leadership. Now he is playing the part of Satan and is ordered to the rear. Peter was tempting Jesus not to go on to the cross as Satan had done in the wilderness. “None are more formidable instruments of temptation than well-meaning friends, who care more for our comfort than for our character”
As for the different versions of the Bible I have read many including the King James. It is not a barrier to my understanding since the King James is the first Bible I read and am well versed in it.
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TRWord
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03/16/2011 12:41 |
Davidwayne wrote:
I know the meaning of omnipresence. Only God is omnipresent. It does not preclude the belief in any other presence. If that were the case you and I would not exist since each of us is a presence.
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Davidwayne; You cannot accept the idea of God as the only presence because as you said; “If that were the case you and I would not exist since each of us is a presence.”
You see yourself as a presence separate and apart from God, this is the problem.
You and I are not separate and apart from God. This is the Truth that our Lord Jesus Christ came to reveal.
At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. (John 14:20KJV)
John Chapter 14,15 &16:1-16 Jesus is teaching on the Holy Spirit the revelation of the Oneness of God.
The belief that we are separate and apart from God is the consequence of Adam’s transgression and is the cause of sin. The realization that we are One with the Spirit is Truth that Jesus spoke about.
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (Romans 8:9-11KJV)
Here Paul used several descriptions of the Spirit interchangeable; the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, Christ, the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead and he that raised up Christ from the dead to show that there is one Spirit.
Seeing Davidwayne as a presence separate and apart from God is what Paul called “being in the flesh” and this leads to damnation. On the other hand being in the Spirit is the realization that; if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal body by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Jesus said it this way;
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. (John 4:23-24KJV)
In other words true worship requires that we recognize God as an omnipresent spirit.
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Ted C
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03/16/2011 13:14 |
OK, so if we're one-and the-same in essence as God, each a part of the contiguous spiritual collective, then God is the source of the belief we are separate from God, the source of Adam's transgression and the source of sin; it's all part of God. Good and bad. The Brahman.
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John T
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03/16/2011 13:14 |
We are in three parts, body, soul and spirit. God only took on a body when he sent his son Jesus to the earth. We are not God. God can send his spirit to live in us, but we are not one with God. Only Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are one with God.
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Lanny Carlson
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03/16/2011 13:42 |
TRW, you said,
"You and I are not separate and apart from God."
I think I know what you are saying,
and I wanted to comment before the inevitable backlash comes!
Unless I totally misunderstand you,
your are NOT saying that we ARE God,
nor are you saying, with pantheists,
that everything IS God.
(If you are, I apologize for misunderstanding,
and putting words in your mouth).
On of my favorite quotes is,
"Unless you can see God everywhere,
you can't see God anywhere."
Rather than pantheism (everything IS God)
I believe in panentheism (Gos is IN everything.)
Apart from God, NOTHING exists, including us.
Furthermore, for us as human beings,
being created in God's image
suggests at the very least that the Spirit of God is present in each of us,
that there is within each of us what Quakers call "a divine spark."
THIS is what we REALLY are,
and Jesus came to awaken that realization within us
and to help us to become what we were truly meant to be.
Jesus called Simon "Peter," "rock," because Jesus say that this is who he really was;
He told the woman caught in adultery to "go and sin no more,"
not to confront her with an impossible demand,
but because he believed in her and wanted her to know who she could truly be.
We are called to believe in God.
But the awesome truth is that God believes in us!
God created all that is, including us, and called it good.
That is the ultimate reality by which we are called to live.
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