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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
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Davidwayne Lackey
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03/19/2011 23:12 |
TRW you said:
Yes the scripture speaks of the devil but if we interpret scripture with a false premise then it’s inevitable that we will be misled. You haven’t proven that the devil exists through scripture you have interpreted scripture with the conviction of the existence of an evil presence, which you have ascribed to your understanding of “the devil.”
I believe you have just admitted to the existence of the Devil.
The premise however is not come by me interpreting Scripture with the conviction of an evil presence before hand but by reading the passages that tell about the Devil. The passages are so clear that you cannot come to any other conclusion.
Mat 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Mat 4:5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
Mat 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Mat 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
Mat 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Mat 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Mat 4:11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.
Notice 4:3 where the Devil is identified as the tempter (peirazo in the Greek) also. There is more than one name for the Devil.
In 4:5 it says Devil (diabolos in the Greek)
In 4:10 it says Satan (Satanas in the Greek)
So now you can see clearly in the original tongue the King James was translated from as well as most of the other translations that have been made that Satan is the Devil and the tempter. So I did in fact prove beyond all doubt that Satan is real and is the Devil with both the passages I just posted here and earlier. It is concrete and irrefutable.
You said:
You have concluded that if there is only one presence that Satan must be a part of that presence, because you have placed your conviction of the existence of an evil presence before all else even Truth.
I wrote that to show the word presence is not used for God only. You had redefined the word saying only God has a presence. Notice in the definition of the word presence in number 4a below:
Definition of PRESENCE
1
: the fact or condition of being present(see 3present)
2
a : the part of space within one's immediate vicinity
b : the neighborhood of one of superior especially royal rank
3
archaic : company 2a
4
: one that is present: as
a : the actual person or thing that is present
b : something present of a visible or concrete nature
5
a : the bearing, carriage, or air of a person; especially : stately or distinguished bearing
b : a noteworthy quality of poise and effectiveness <the actor's commanding presence>
6
: something (as a spirit) felt or believed to be present
See presence defined for English-language learners »
Examples of PRESENCE
<men should watch their language when in the presence of ladies>
<the orchestra's musical director has a very stately presence>
Bacteria sense their neighbors and respond to the presence of others in the colony by exchanging small molecules and bits of proteins called peptides … —Susan Gaidos, Science News, 17 Jan. 2009
So you can see by definition that you and I are each a presence. You cannot just redefine a word to make it fit your theology. This is what you have done. This is what the Metaphysical Bible does.
You said:
Now you also said because you have placed your conviction of the existence of an evil presence before all else even Truth.
I have the conviction of an evil one who is not omnipresent based on the truth of Scripture, not before all else even truth but because Scripture says so and Scripture is God's word and is truth.
You wrote: TRW, Once again you have skipped over the obvious in Matthew 4:10.
Davidwayne I also wonder how you skip over the obvious in Genesis 2:16-17
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. (Genesis 2:16-17KJV)
TRW the only thing Gen. 2:16-17 proves is the evil existed before Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit. I fail to see where that proves there is no evil one identified in Scripture as the devil Satan. This passage does not deal with the subject of the Devil.
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TRWord
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03/21/2011 03:58 |
Ted C wrote:
Why not just come straight out and tell us what you believe regarding:
1. The clear definition of God
2. The clear definition of Jesus
3. The clear definition of Man
4. The clear definition of sin
5. The clear definition of salvation
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Ted you continue to ask what I believe. I have been posting here long enough that you should know what I believe.
You said: “It seems like I always find your answers incomplete and quizzical.”
You are use to mainstream doctrine and the confusion of denominationalism. Jesus taught no doctrine in fact he stated emphatically that all those who have exchanged His teaching for doctrine worship Him in vain. (Matthew 15:9 & Mark 7:7)
Now in your version of the Bible it might seem to say something quite different.
You also said; “it strikes me that, as in Mormonism, your belief system may be causing you to try to purposely mislead people about the nature of your theology by using Christian terms and rationalizing that since you have the true definitions of the terms involved, it's not really deception.”
I have told you time and time again that I follow no religion. I hold fast to the teaching of Jesus Christ.
When exposed to His teaching mainstreamers become confused because mainstream doctrine is the law of Moses superimposed with a total misunderstanding of Paul’s letters. To understand Paul letters you must first understand what Jesus taught.
How could anyone miss that “the knowledge of good and evil” is at the heart of our spiritual understanding? This should be impossible but mainstream doctrine has replace this with Eve and an apple and a forbidden fruit.
You also suggest that I’m using what you call Christian terms to purposely mislead people. What is misleading people is mainstream doctrine. Mainstream doctrine uses Christian terms such as the Holy Spirit but without the teaching of Jesus Christ the Holy Spirit cannot be known.
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John T
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03/21/2011 12:39 |
How do you define sin TRWord? If there is no "evil" in your world, then what is sin?
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John T
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03/21/2011 12:51 |
Just stumbled on this verse -- how does this fit into your theology?
1Pe 5:6 Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you,
1Pe 5:7 casting all your anxieties on him, because he cares for you.
1Pe 5:8 Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.
1Pe 5:9 Resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same kinds of suffering are being experienced by your brotherhood throughout the world.
1Pe 5:10 And after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you.
1Pe 5:11 To him be the dominion forever and ever. Amen.
Who is that in 1 Peter 5:8 then?
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John T
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03/21/2011 14:20 |
I saw this comic and thought it made a good point. Regardless of what we all believe, someday soon Christ will return and we will all know the truth beyond a shadow of a doubt. Some of us will be wrong and have followed the wrong things. "From thence he will come to judge the quick and the dead" or something like that. Just as the silly line "not believing in trucks doesn't make getting hit on the road less true". All our beliefs will be the same way -- not believing in something doesn't change a bit whether it is true or not. Only God is truth, and he will determine what things will look like.
Made me smile,
Blessings,
John
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14207132/20031027-2.gif
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TRWord
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03/21/2011 18:54 |
Davidwayne wrote;
I believe you have just admitted to the existence of the Devil.
The premise however is not come by me interpreting Scripture with the conviction of an evil presence before hand but by reading the passages that tell about the Devil. The passages are so clear that you cannot come to any other conclusion.
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Davidwayne;
You said; “The passages are so clear that you cannot come to any other conclusion.”
You cannot come to any other conclusion because you are interpreting the scripture guided by religious misconception instead of being guided by the TRUTH.
Yes the Bible speaks of “the devil” but it also speaks of THE TRUTH. Your understanding of one is in violation to the other.
You are more committed to proving the existence of an evil entity than you are in learning of the true nature of God.
Didn’t Jesus call Peter Satan for a very similar reason?
But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offense unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. (Matthew 16:23KJV)
You said;
“TRW the only thing Gen. 2:16-17 proves is the evil existed before Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit. I fail to see where that proves there is no evil one identified in Scripture as the devil Satan. This passage does not deal with the subject of the Devil.”
Here again you are interpreting Genesis 2:16-17 with the religious misconception of “Adam and Eve and a forbidden fruit” instead of what is actually written. Do you realize by saying that evil existed before Adam you are also saying that God created evil.
This should be inconceivable!
The Bible said: “And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.” (Genesis 1:31)
You also said that Genesis 2:16-17 does not deal with the subject of the Devil.
This is where mainstream doctrine has misguided us all. Genesis 2:16-17 is entirely about the devil and is at the heart of our spiritual understanding.
Genesis 2:16-17 has nothing to do with an apple or a forbidden fruit.
Here Our Loving Father is alerting Adam to the danger of “the knowledge of good and evil.”
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. (Genesis 2:16-17)
There is no way that we can separate “the devil” from “the knowledge of good and evil,” when we follow the sequence of events.
First; God warned Adam of the danger of “the knowledge of good and evil.”
Second; Adam disobeyed God.
Third; Man begins to believe in the existence of an evil entity called the devil.
Fourth; God sends His son Jesus Christ to reveal THE TRUTH that God is an omnipresent spirit which negates the belief in “the devil” to those who believe.
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TRWord
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03/22/2011 05:49 |
John T you asked?
“How do you define sin TRWord? If there is no "evil" in your world, then what is sin?”
The whole world yours and mine is filled with the consequence of our belief in good and evil, and the more we reap the consequence of this belief the more we continue to believe it. We live in times when we cannot deny that the consequence is escalating as you pointed out using (Luke 21:9-13) in your post “Earthquake.”
It’s written; And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. (Matthew 24:22KJV)
Christians today believe that thief, murder and adultery is sin although Paul has reminded us that sin existed long before Moses law.
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. (Romans 5:12-14KJV)
Adam sinned by disobeying God’s command against “the knowledge of good and evil,” through Adam we are born in sin or under “the belief in good and evil.”
Thief, murder and adultery, all transgressions against the law are cause by the original sin “our belief in good and evil.”
The belief in good and evil creates the belief in two powers one for good “God” and another for evil : the devil.”
Jesus came to reveal the truth and he said;
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. (John 8:32KJV)
The Truth “the knowledge of the Holy Spirit” frees us from the belief in good and evil.
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Craig from Illinois
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03/22/2011 06:26 |
After weeks of lurking I think I finally understand the arguments and nuanced definitions. It took most of last night to re-read all the posts though!
The next logical questions I have for TRWord.... "What is Grace?" and "Does Grace cover the belief in the knowledge of good and evil?
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Ted C
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03/22/2011 08:02 |
TR,
If simply believing in evil produces actual evil, wouldn't it be a disconnect from reality to not believe in the evil which actually exists; the evil that flows from believing in evil? In other words, do you not believe in evil yourself when you say, in effect, that believing in evil results in actual evil?
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John T
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03/22/2011 11:55 |
How do you explain the book of Job in this context?
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