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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
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TRWord
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03/23/2011 13:51 |
Craig
You are the first person here who have recognized “the knowledge of good and evil.”
You asked; "What is Grace?" and "Does Grace cover the belief in the knowledge of good and evil?
God’s Grace is God’s love.
“The knowledge of good and evil” has separated us from God and His Grace. It has brought upon us the belief in two powers and the conflict between good and evil.
Now we see ourselves as five to six billion individual beings with God, the devil and the war between good and evil.
This is what Paul called the natural man, this is the state of the carnal mind and this is what he described as being in the flesh.
Our journey now is from being in the flesh to being in the spirit. The problem is the natural man cannot understand the things of the spirit.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Corinthians 2:14KJV)
The journey now must begins with an act of faith. “Ye must be born again.”
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. (John 3:3KJV)
Now we must be born of the spirit. We must give up the understanding of the natural man for a new understanding one of the spirit. We must accept through faith the Oneness of God as revealed by our Lord Jesus Christ.
At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. (John 14:20KJV)
Then we are one with the Spirit, no longer separate and apart from Him or His Grace.
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Ted C
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03/24/2011 16:16 |
TR,
The contexts of the passages you quoted affirm the existence of evil, rather than teaching us not to believe in it:
1 Corinthians 2:14 is two and a half chapters before 1 Corinthians 5, in the same book:
"It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father's wife. You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst. For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough? Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed. Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES."
John 3:3-21
"Jesus answered and said to him, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.' Nicodemus said to Him, 'How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?' Jesus answered, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, "You must be born again." The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.' Nicodemus said to Him, 'How can these things be?' Jesus answered and said to him, 'Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony. If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.'"
John Chapters 13-17 are set during the Last Supper, and John 12:4 says that right before this Judas Iscariot, "was intending to betray Him". Luke 22:3,4 expands on exactly what happened:
"And Satan entered into Judas who was called Iscariot, belonging to the number of the twelve. And he went away and discussed with the chief priests and officers how he might betray Him to them."
The passage in John 14:20-25 teaches itself - in context - that being in Christ is dependent on obeying Him:
"'In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.' Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, 'Lord, what then has happened that You are going to disclose Yourself to us and not to the world?' Jesus answered and said to him, 'If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me. These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you.'"
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Ted C
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03/24/2011 16:22 |
TR, was Jesus in essence a different type of being than we are? Was He - and He alone - 100% man and 100% God concurrently; eternally distinct from the rest of mankind who is in no way now or ever will be inherently divine?
Or is "Christ" simply and entirely an office to which Jesus aspired, a position that each of us can attain through enlightenment and progression?
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Jim
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03/24/2011 21:15 |
wow. not sure i ever put this much thought into it. hard to look around the world today and think evil does not exist. i suppose that's my super-simple and non-educated take on things. let's just say there is plenty of dark out there in need of light. our job is to deliver the light. no matter what you call or how you define the dark.
but that's just me.
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Amanda
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03/24/2011 22:56 |
TR Word
there is only one verse that keeps playing in my head every time I read your answers and that is...
1 Cor. 14:33
For He [Who is the source of their prophesying] is not a God of confusion and disorder but of peace and order. As [is the practice] in all the churches of the saints (God’s people).
I feel like Ted C, you do not clearly answer peoples questions... leaving people
confused as to what you are saying. I am interested in understanding your perspective but I do not know where it is coming from. could you explain a little more... what you meant when you posted...
"You are use to mainstream doctrine and the confusion of denominationalism. Jesus taught no doctrine in fact he stated emphatically that all those who have exchanged His teaching for doctrine worship Him in vain. (Matthew 15:9 & Mark 7:7)
Now in your version of the Bible it might seem to say something quite different."
Mathhew 15:9
Uselessly do they worship Me, for they teach as doctrines the commands of men. (AMP)
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.(KJ)
They worship me in vain;their teachings are merely human rules." (NIV)
Their worship is a farce, for they teach man-made ideas as commands from God” (NLT)
What Version of the Bible are you using? (If I may ask because you imply that the person reading your statement may have it worded differently in there Bible)
What exactly do you define as "mainstream doctrine"?
What is the confusion of denominationalism?
You also said...
"I have told you time and time again that I follow no religion. I hold fast to the teaching of Jesus Christ."
What does this mean exactly?
Do you believe the Bible is the divinely inspired inerrant word of God? or do you just fallow Jesus' Teachings and ignore the rest?
Again... I am just asking for clarification. I mean no disrespect and I in no way want to be argumentative. I truly want to understand your point of view because it is unclear to me at this point in time.
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TRWord
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03/25/2011 11:01 |
Hi Amanda
You said; “I am interested in understanding your perspective but I do not know where it is coming from. could you explain a little more... what you meant when you posted...
"You are use to mainstream doctrine and the confusion of denominationalism. Jesus taught no doctrine in fact he stated emphatically that all those who have exchanged His teaching for doctrine worship Him in vain. (Matthew 15:9 & Mark 7:7)
Now in your version of the Bible it might seem to say something quite different."
Christianity is the teaching of Jesus Christ and Matthew 15:9 & Mark 7:7 are not only the verses that support this but they also show that without His teaching that even our understanding of the Word is impaired.
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. (KJV)
Uselessly do they worship Me, for they teach as doctrines the commands of men. (AMP)
They worship me in vain; their teachings are merely human rules." (NIV)
Their worship is a farce, for they teach man-made ideas as commands from God” (NLT)
-To answer your question I use the King James Version so I’ll be comparing the (KJV) to the other versions you included.
When you look at the first part of the verse, it says; “But in vain they do worship me,” and you’ll notice that each version has a similar meaning.
The second part of the verse is where the difference occurs. Without an awareness of the teaching of Jesus Christ “teaching” is understood as a verb and “for” is interpreted “as.” The meaning of the second part of the verse then becomes; “teaching as doctrine the commandments of men,” and you will notice that this is the approximate meaning of the other three versions you included. You will also notice that you are left without an understanding of who “are they” which worship in vain.
On the other hand with an awareness of the teaching of Jesus Christ “teaching” is understood as His teaching and “for” is interpreted as “exchanged for.” The meaning of the second part of the verse then becomes “teaching exchanged for [doctrine the commandments of men.]” It also explains who “they are” which worship in vain; they that exchange His teaching for doctrine.
You also asked; “Do you believe the Bible is the divinely inspired inerrant word of God? or do you just fallow Jesus' Teachings and ignore the rest?”
Jesus taught;
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:17-19KJV)
Therefore to ignore any part of the Bible would be disobedience to what he taught. The Bible is the story of man’s progression from the Law to the Kingdom of heaven. Man was taught the law through Moses and we will enter the kingdom of heaven only through the teaching of Jesus Christ.
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Amanda
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03/26/2011 04:05 |
TR Word
thank you for clarifying a few of the things that I ask and I think I see what you are saying.
You wrote
"You will also notice that you are left without an understanding of who “are they” which worship in vain."
If you read the verse within the context of the entire chapter you see that the "they" Jesus is talking about are the Pharisees.
As I dig into this passage it is clear that Jesus is confronting the Pharisees on the fact that they have placed so many man made rules on themselves that they are missing Jesus entirely.
Mark 7:8-13
For you ignore God’s law and substitute your own tradition.”
9 Then he said, “You skillfully sidestep God’s law in order to hold on to your own tradition. 10 For instance, Moses gave you this law from God: ‘Honor your father and mother, and ‘Anyone who speaks disrespectfully of father or mother must be put to death. 11 But you say it is all right for people to say to their parents, ‘Sorry, I can’t help you. For I have vowed to give to God what I would have given to you. 12 In this way, you let them disregard their needy parents. 13 And so you cancel the word of God in order to hand down your own tradition. And this is only one example among many others.”
The Pharisees were so bound up by their own man maid super imposed laws that they would constantly nitpick the things that Christ and His followers did, for example, not washing their hands before a meal. They used these man made rules to try and diffuse Jesus' teaching. And Jesus Says...
Mark 6: “You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you, for he wrote,
‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
So... I wrote all that to say I think I understand that particular post.
However... I don't think I fully understand you position on of "the knowledge of good and evil."
I do thank you though for getting my brain working! And for giving me yet another reason to dive into scripture.
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TRWord
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03/26/2011 06:27 |
Amanda
You wrote;
“If you read the verse within the context of the entire chapter you see that the "they" Jesus is talking about are the Pharisees.
As I dig into this passage it is clear that Jesus is confronting the Pharisees on the fact that they have placed so many man made rules on themselves that they are missing Jesus entirely.”
What I think you are missing is that Jesus is teaching. Jesus was always teaching his disciples and by extension teaching us.
Here he was applying a prophesy of Isaiah to the Pharisees. In that instant “they that worship in vain” does apply to the Pharisees but the message extends to today and to you and me. Understanding who “they are” that worship in vain is important so you can apply it to today. I believe the verse is saying that it’s they who exchange his teaching for doctrine.
Matthew 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,
Matthew 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Let’s look at today
A christian cannot be a roman catholic, an anglican, a baptists, a charismatic, a jehovah’s witness, a lutheran, a methodists, a pentecostal, a presbyterian nor a seventh-Day Adventists. All these different positions could not have come from the same teaching. This is the confusion of denominationalism and as you rightly pointed out anything that is of confusion is not of God. This is the “they” who have exchanged His teaching for doctrine.
Christianity is discipleship to the teaching of Jesus Christ.
Acts 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
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Our mainstream indoctrination begins with the idea of Adam and Eve and an apple or a forbidden fruit. However this is not what is written. The Bible tells us that God alerted Adam that “the knowledge of good and evil” would lead to death. “The knowledge of good and evil” is the very beginning of our spiritual understanding and can never be misrepresented or brushed over.
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Ted C
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03/26/2011 09:29 |
TR, to put the question a second time: Was Jesus in essence a different type of being than we are? Was He - and He alone - 100% man and 100% God concurrently; eternally distinct from the rest of mankind who are in no way now or ever will be inherently divine?
Or is "Christ" simply and entirely an office to which Jesus aspired, a position that each of us can attain through enlightenment and progression?
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TRWord
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03/29/2011 04:43 |
Ted C wrote;
TR, to put the question a second time: Was Jesus in essence a different type of being than we are? Was He - and He alone - 100% man and 100% God concurrently; eternally distinct from the rest of mankind who are in no way now or ever will be inherently divine?
Or is "Christ" simply and entirely an office to which Jesus aspired, a position that each of us can attain through enlightenment and progression?
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Ted you have provided me with two options here and I guess I’m suppose to choose one of them. The problem is the Christ is neither. Ted you have placed your faith in doctrine and obviously have not studied the teaching of Jesus Christ.
(Matthew 16:13-19)
Here you’ll find that the Christ is a revelation not of flesh and blood, [in other words not of material perception] but a revelation from Our Father.
When Jesus came into the coasts of Cae-sa-ré-a Phil´-ippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven (Matthew 16:13-17KJV)
Knowledge of the Son (the Christ) cannot be perceived through our material understanding, but only through the spirit.
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. (Matthew 11:27KJV)
Ted you have asked me several questions may I ask you one as well?
Have you ever wondered why God (our loving Father) warned Adam against “the knowledge of good and evil” or is the belief in “a forbidden fruit” sufficient for you.
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