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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
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Calico
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04/26/2011 18:58 |
Thank you, Glenna,
Hugs to you for the expression you've shared here about what you mean "born this way." This helps me to orient my personal understanding of what you, Glenna, specifically, mean by using the wording.
All of what you've described in your first paragraph are things we commonly hear about at my church, Glenna (www.themeetinghouse.ca). In getting to know the LGBT people who might attend, many of the experiences are described by them similarly (your account of "from his earliest moments... he chose feminine things" is representative of gay men's accounts, although there are lesbian/bisexual people express their own matters that are similar too). So yours (your sons) is not a unique story, but I am glad you are opening up enough to share what commonly resonates with conversations that I occasionally experience in my church local. When those struggling with same-sex attraction appear in the doors of The Meeting House, in general they have the same anxieties about rejection that you've seen your son experience - but many (almost all?) are very taken but the ethos of understanding that we are able to bring to our conversations, even as much as we all struggle along in those understandings.
I would have written much more, but of what Kelley has written already, I am in good unison on that line of thinking she's positioned as having. I would have expressed those same things, albeit in my own words, but I will leave Kelley's things as "well enough." :-)
Glenna, if I may offer something to you and the rest of our brothers and sisters following along here on this thread: if you click on The Meeting House weblink above (* this is a temporary website, as our new one is under construction for a late summer launch), I hope to encourage you to then click on the "Teaching" tab, and to look for a three specific teachings. Each teaching is found within three different series; "Hot Potatoes I (Apr. '99), Hot Potatoes II (Oct. 02), and Hot Potatoes III (Spet. 05). The teachings are titled, respectively, "Is Being Gay A Sin?," "Is Gay Marriage A Step In The Right Direction?," and "Can Queers Follow Christ?" As you can see from the air-dates of each teaching, this is something The Meeting House community has been progressing with for quite some time; more than a decade.
IF I MAY BE CLEAR HERE: these are not offered as "this-is-something-that-you-should-listen-to-that-will-fix-you" sorts of things. Instead, these are offered as things that resonate with the heart you've expressed throughout this thread, Glenna. I am willing to bet you will enjoy (and even have good laughs) in listening through, even if such hot-potato things are touchy subjects. :-)
And if the titles of those teachings might SEEM inflammatory or negative to one's perceptions, then I hope to encourage one to drop their "lens" in this matter, for now, and to HAVE A LISTEN TO THE TEACHINGS FOR WHAT THEY ARE. I am willing to bet that these may not be like what you've heard previously.
In your 04/24/2011 08:21 post, you'd written "You get to know a gay person. I mean really have conversations. Maybe I should qualify that by saying just listen. Don't interrupt. Don't interject any opinions. Just listen." And through my offering of the teachings listed above, I am reciprocating your offer: I am hoping to introduce to you a community of people to get to know, with whom there very much are these sorts of good conversations, of whom you can just listen to without interrupting or interjecting any opinion. Just have a listen-to.
We are all helping one another to build a safe, grace-filled Christ-centered environment here. And I am thankful that you have blessed us all in offering to us all that you have thus far, Glenna.
Praying with you all,
Tom
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Calico
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04/26/2011 19:04 |
Ugh... no edit button...
"...many (almost all?) are very taken BUT the ethos of understanding that we are able to bring to our conversations" is intended to read "many (almost all?) are very taken BY the ethos of understanding that we are able to bring to our conversations..."
Blessings,
Tom
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Joyce
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04/26/2011 19:15 |
Mrs. C, I have also just been tracking this thread and praying for you and others here. There are many things I have wanted to share from the very beginning but always felt that I was just to be silent and pray so that I have done. I am so happy to hear you are going to come back around to the forums because I appreciate your passion. I do not qualify in understanding the pain your son has endured and it saddens me to even hear about it. I just want you to know you are loved and your opinion matters here. I also just wanted to tell you that I used to think that Craig had an issue with anything I ever posted and often times was hurt by some of his comments. However I have come to know him alot better from spending time in the chat room with him and want to say: he is an awesome man of God and I can't imagine him meaning harm to anyone. Give him a chance because he is an incredible brother to have. I just know that it is OK for us to disagree without being accusing. Love you and hugs and blessings
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John T
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04/26/2011 19:57 |
I agree with Kelly when she said that we are ALL born into sin. We all have that nature in us - we're all born that way. Also, generational sins come into play. There is definite research that certain tendencies tend to run in families, I would say that it is more than just genetics. I know that has seemed to be true in my family and my life. That doesn't mean that our fathers are responsible for our sins -- but it may mean that we have a harder time with something, be it sexual, alcohol, etc. Blessings to you Mrs. C -- you've certainly been through a lot.
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Teressa
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04/26/2011 23:36 |
I also agree with Kelley that we are all born with a sinful nature and just because we are born that way does not mean we should accept it and settle for staying that way. I also agree with John that generational sins (and curses) do seem to come into into play. The way I see generational sin/curses is more like generational acceptance of sin. By that I mean, what once was considered sin, generation by generation becomes more and more acceptable and referred to as human rights and alternative life styles, etc. But, who exactly is offering these acceptable rights and choices to us? And, will these acceptable rights and choices draw us closer to God or put more distance between us and God?
The aim of the enemy of our souls and "world system" at work all around us, more and more, generation after generation, is to desensitize us to the conviction of sin by the Holy Spirit. Without conviction of sin, where is the realization of the need for a Savior and deliverance from sin?
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Calico
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05/01/2011 12:57 |
Might be a lot for one to go through the downloading the .mp3s I referred to in my 04/26/2011 18:58 post, but I just wondered if anyone had heard them (or one of them).
Perhaps the best one, for summarization's sake, would be the "Hot Potatoes III (Sept. 05) teaching entitled 'Can Queers Follow Christ?'" found on the same www.themeetinghouse.ca website (right-click on the sermon's audio link and then click on "Save Target As..." and download to wherever folder you download to; then drag-and-drop to add to iTunes).
Hoping we can still engage in good dialog on this thread...
Praying with you,
Tom
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John T
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05/01/2011 18:40 |
Just in the middle of listening to it Tom... interesting so far.
He made some interesting comments about how churches can be "conservative" or "liberal" or both.
Had an odd though while listening as he said "homosexual pastor" -- it made me think of the instructions for elder and deacon in the word. I know that our pastors struggle with the same sins and challenges that we all do. But, do we expect them to be more of an example for us or is that not important. Can a person live in unrepentant sin, as those who profess to be "stuck this way" and make no efforts to change and still be a pastor? I don't really know the answer. It's a question that scares me a little I guess.
Still listening...
John
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John T
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05/01/2011 18:49 |
A wonderful point that he made -- When he meets other men who are in a gay relationship he said he "disagrees with it strongly but doesn't doubt that they are a Christian." I wholeheartedly agree! God can bring us from wherever we are! We are born in sin, and even after accepting Christ will all likely continue to struggle while we at the same time learn to overcome through Him! What a wonderful phrase. We can disagree, but in love!
Amazing stuff!
John
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John T
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05/01/2011 19:00 |
"For God so loved them" includes all gay and lesbian! Yes! Very true -- lots of good points in this message. These things are all part of the fall - yes! God designed the perfect 1 man + 1 woman relationship in Adam and Eve. After the fall, there are examples of this going downhill very quickly, even in the stories of Noah, and Sodom, etc.
I also think he made an awesome point. We are all born into sin. It does not profit us to argue as to whether this person was "born that way" or not. We all struggle with temptations of different sorts.
Good message Tom,
Thanks!
John
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Ted C
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05/01/2011 22:48 |
I still strongly disagree that people can "be" gay. A person is not their actions.
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