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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
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Ted C
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05/27/2011 19:00 |
1 Timothy 2:13,14
"For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression."
Note that this means Adam was doubly guilty because he happened to know better at the time he ate the fruit. It also pretty clearly teaches that Adam and Eve were two separate human beings, a man and a woman.
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John T
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05/27/2011 20:28 |
I'm with Ted there as well. I follow you on the first two parts Chris, but you've lost me on the logic of that last one. Aren't children and offspring the same thing?
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Catholica
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05/30/2011 06:41 |
This may be of interest, from the book of Tobit:
Tobit 8:6 You made Adam and you gave him his wife Eve to be his help and support; and from these two the human race descended. You said, ‘It is not good for the man to be alone; let us make him a partner like himself.’
Note the Bible says "these two".
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Bibleman
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05/30/2011 10:46 |
:) thanks for the deuterocannon :)
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Catholica
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05/31/2011 09:42 |
No problem.
Actually this passage from Tobit is one of my favorites. Sarah, who is the new wife of Tobiah, had been married seven times before and each time, on their wedding night, this demon came and murdered her new husband. In this story, God sends the Archangel Raphael to assist in the protection of Tobiah and Sarah, and before they consummate their wedding on the night of their nuptials, Tobiah prays:
Tobiah 8:4-9a
When the girl's parents left the bedroom and closed the door behind them, Tobiah arose from bed and said to his wife, "My love, get up. Let us pray and beg our Lord to have mercy on us and to grant us deliverance." She got up, and they started to pray and beg that deliverance might be theirs. He began with these words: "Blessed are you, O God of our fathers; praised be your name forever and ever. Let the heavens and all your creation praise you forever. You made Adam and you gave him his wife Eve to be his help and support; and from these two the human race descended. You said, 'It is not good for the man to be alone; let us make him a partner like himself.' Now, Lord, you know that I take this wife of mine not because of lust, but for a noble purpose. Call down your mercy on me and on her, and allow us to live together to a happy old age." They said together, "Amen, amen," and went to bed for the night.
Back to context with this thread, I also note how it says that God made Eve to be Adam's help and support. And yet if we take what Christopher is saying, which is that Eve was the part of the one man who is deceived, then why does the Bible say that Eve was created to be Adam's "help and support"? A deceived part of a man cannot possibly be a help and support.
Even if one doesn't take this book to be inspired, still we can see a historical belief in these words, and that belief is that Adam and Eve were two people, not one, and that Eve was a help and support, not a hindrance or a "deceived part of a man".
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Catholica
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05/31/2011 10:00 |
Another thought - if the woman is the deceived part of a man:
1) Why was the woman created by /God/? Genesis 2:22. Did God create deception?
2) How did 'she' exist before the serpent came to deceive the first 'man'? Was Adam deceived by God himself before the serpent ever got there? That's what it sounds like since 'she' existed before the serpent came.
3) How can she have "had her eyes opened"? I would have thought that 'she' was the embodiment of "having her eyes open" from the beginning.
4) Wouldn't the woman have been 'created' once the first man was deceived by the serpent and the first man took the fruit from the tree and ate it, and not before?
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TRWord
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05/31/2011 11:08 |
Hi John
You said;
I'm with Ted there as well. I follow you on the first two parts Chris, but you've lost me on the logic of that last one. Aren't children and offspring the same thing?
============================================
Offspring can mean children but is that what it means in this case?
If Adam and Eve is a man and a woman and Cain and Abel are their children. (Genesis 4:1)
Why “the book of the generations of Adam” begins Genesis 5:1 and why his genealogy begins with Seth and does not contain either Cain or Abel.
If Adam and Eve is a man and a woman the question that begging to be asked is;
Why wasn’t Adam deceived?
Is the Bible saying that only the female gender was susceptible to deception and not the male gender.
Also God needed a rib from Adam to make Eve doesn’t this mean that the male and female gender were made differently and at different times.
This contradicts Genesis 1:27; which says that man represents both male and female gender.
Gen. 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
And we would have to ignore Genesis 5:2 which plainly tells us that they name Adam represents both male and female gender.
Gen. 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
One in Christ
Christopher
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TRWord
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05/31/2011 11:47 |
Catholica wrote:
Another thought - if the woman is the deceived part of a man:
1) Why was the woman created by /God/? Genesis 2:22. Did God create deception?
2) How did 'she' exist before the serpent came to deceive the first 'man'? Was Adam deceived by God himself before the serpent ever got there? That's what it sounds like since 'she' existed before the serpent came.
3) How can she have "had her eyes opened"? I would have thought that 'she' was the embodiment of "having her eyes open" from the beginning.
4) Wouldn't the woman have been 'created' once the first man was deceived by the serpent and the first man took the fruit from the tree and ate it, and not before?
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The woman is not the deceived part of man. The woman is that part of man that is deceived.
God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul but Jesus made it clear that there are more parts to man than just his soul.
Matt. 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
The scripture tells that God took a rib from Adam to make Eve to emphasize that Eve is a part of Adam.
Adam also said;
Gen. 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
Christopher
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Ted C
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05/31/2011 15:28 |
To carry forward the concept being presented, Christopher please correct me if I'm wrong:
Genesis 3:7,8
"Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings. They heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife (Strong's H802 "ishshah" - Strong's definition: Woman, wife, female; Christopher's definition: The part of man which is deceived) hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden."
If we insert Christopher's definition of Strong's H802 "ishshah" into some of the other passages where it appears, we get the following.
Genesis 2:22-24
"The LORD God fashioned into [the part of man which is deceived] the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man. The man said, 'This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called [the part of man which is deceived], because she was taken out of Man.' For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his [the part of man which is deceived] ; and they shall become one flesh. And the man and his [the part of man which is deceived] were both naked and were not ashamed."
Genesis 3:11-20
"And He said, 'Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?' The man said, '[the part of man which is deceived] whom You gave to be with me, she gave me from the tree, and I ate.' Then the LORD God said to [the part of man which is deceived], 'What is this you have done?' And [the part of man which is deceived] said, 'The serpent deceived me, and I ate.' The LORD God said to the serpent, 'Because you have done this, cursed are you more than all cattle, and more than every beast of the field; on your belly you will go, and dust you will eat all the days of your life; and I will put enmity between you and [the part of man which is deceived], and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise you on the head, and you shall bruise him on the heel.' To [the part of man which is deceived] He said, 'I will greatly multiply your pain in childbirth, in pain you will bring forth children; yet your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.' Then to Adam He said, 'Because you have listened to the voice of [the part of man which is deceived], and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, "You shall not eat from it"; cursed is the ground because of you; in toil you will eat of it all the days of your life. Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; and you will eat the plants of the field; by the sweat of your face you will eat bread, till you return to the ground, because from it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.' Now the man called [the part of man which is deceived]'s name Eve, because she was the mother of all the living. The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and [the part of man which is deceived], and clothed them."
Genesis 4:17-19
"Cain had relations with his [the part of man which is deceived] and she conceived, and gave birth to Enoch; and he built a city, and called the name of the city Enoch, after the name of his son. Now to Enoch was born Irad, and Irad became the father of Mehujael, and Mehujael became the father of Methushael, and Methushael became the father of Lamech. Lamech took to himself two [the part of man which is deceived]s: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other, Zillah."
Given the context of the word "ishshah"'s usage in the passages about Adam and in subsequent passages, I think it has to be interpreted the way Strong's has it listed as a literal "woman, wife, female."
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jonathonbyrd
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06/01/2011 01:38 |
this has got to be the worst debate that I've ever read through...
I'm sorry TRWORD, but your understanding of the scripture is completely flawed.
before you condemn yourself farther by teaching this to anybody, please go study TRUTH within scripture. I think it will reveal to you a more biblical understanding then what you're running with.
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