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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
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Kelley
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05/02/2011 23:51 |
Yeah he did, wow! :) I envy you guys and your sounding so smart when you write.
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Ted C
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05/03/2011 00:10 |
Tom, very well put. I love your reference to Tozer, BTW. Knowledge of the Holy is one of my favorite books. I have a ton of books on my bookshelf and it's one of the few that actually get's pulled down once or twice a year for reference.
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TRWord
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05/03/2011 14:56 |
Hi Tom
I enjoyed your reply and you have given me here a glimpse into your way of thinking.
I define myself as a disciple of Jesus Christ and what that means is;
1) I recognize the two understandings in the Bible; “The fear of the Lord” which was the old covenant and the revelation of the Holy Spirit through Jesus Christ which is the new covenant.
2) I believe that our salvation is in His teaching and not in seeing Him as a sacrifice for sin.
Proverbs 9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.
It was revealed to me a while ago that there is no such thing as a non-believer. We are all believers Christians, Atheists or whatever and we are all subject to whatsoever we believe.
The Bible tells us that we reap what we sow. The problem is we believe that we sow through our actions only. We fail to see that we sow through our beliefs. Our experience is the manifestation of what we believe.
You said;
“So the matter at hand would seem to be one of timing. It is a matter of an outcome that has not yet come about. And during such times, we might suffer.”
You are saying here the opposite of what Jesus taught. He said that the kingdom of God is at hand.
Your belief comes from the fact that you fail to see that God gave us dominion over the earth, we are “the causative agent” in the earth.
In the story of Job, Satan answered God with this question;
Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
In other words does Job worship God in vain?
The Pastor who said; “God didn’t even spare His own house.” is voicing the same sentiment;
Do we worship in vain?
This is the question that Christians are afraid to ask, but Jesus has already answered this question.
Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Here he is saying that they who have exchanged His teaching for doctrine “the commandments of men” worship Him in vain.
The idea that it will be all right in the bye and bye, is the idea of a man who is on the wrong road and who is persistently ignoring the signs.
Worship correctly and you’ll see the hand of God. Worship in vain and it’s like not worshipping at all.
Jesus has given us the key to the kingdom:
Matthew 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Notice it’s up to us whether we give all power to heaven or to things in the earth.
Can we give all power to heaven and also believe in an evil entity.
Psalms 91:1 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
Psalms 91:7 A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.
Psalms 91:10 There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.
These three verses of the 91st Psalms tells us that giving all power to heaven makes us right with God; and this has it’s rewards.
The prophet Hosea said; “For they have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind:”
We have to acknowledge that we are sowing through what we believe.
God commanded Adam against the knowledge of good and evil and without what you called “the rubbish of conventional religious notions” it would not have been such a leap in logic for us to recognize that there was something inherently dangerous in the knowledge of good and evil. But after we have been indoctrinated into the idea of an apple and a forbidden fruit the idea of inherent danger in this belief has been lost. Now many christians believe that God was testing Adam. After all there is nothing wrong with the fruit itself he was just told not to eat it.
However believing in good and "a deprivation of something good that ought to be there" as evil has been our downfall.
And further more it’s accumulative.
First we began by mis-reading "a deprivation of something good that ought to be there" as evil which caused us to experience good and evil. Which caused us to believe in the existence of evil and which took us even further to believe in an evil agent.
Now we cannot give all power to heaven because we believe in another power, an evil one.
This is our predicament.
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John T
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05/03/2011 20:10 |
Or perhaps the serpent is subtle, as you said, and he can even try to get us to believe that he, and evil, doesn't exist. That would be subtle, would it not? Try reading C.S. Lewis Screwtape Letters.
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TRWord
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05/04/2011 04:39 |
john
You are afraid that if you don’t believe in evil that it will creep up behind you. The opposite is true. You will never experience what you don’t believe.
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Catholica
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05/04/2011 12:26 |
TRWord,
This interesting question comes to mind: what was Jesus teaching us when he offered himself upon the cross? Do you believe that Jesus' teaching was only in words, or in both words and actions?
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TRWord
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05/04/2011 14:28 |
Catholica wrote;
This interesting question comes to mind: what was Jesus teaching us when he offered himself upon the cross? Do you believe that Jesus' teaching was only in words, or in both words and actions?
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The scribes and the Pharisees believed that a sacrifice had to be offered for the forgiveness of sin and they were very disturbed when they heard Jesus saying;
“Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.”
Matthew 9:2KJV And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.
And the scribes said within themselves; This man blasphemeth.
Matthew 9:4-7KJV And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts? For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk? But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house. And he arose, and departed to his house.
Jesus has power on earth to forgive sins.
He did not go the cross as a sacrifice for sin He went to the cross to bear witness that what he said was true. Jesus said He was the son of God and the scribes and the Pharisees did not believe so they wanted a sign.
Matthew 12:38-40KJV Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
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Because the idea of a sacrifice was such a prominent part of the old covenant, Jesus recognized that His death and resurrection might be misunderstood.
Using the parable of “new cloth unto an old garment” and “new wine in old bottles” He emphasized the incompatibility between His teaching and the old understanding.
Matthew 9:16-17KJV No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse. Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.
Also;
Using the parable of the good shepherd (John 10:1-18) Jesus characterizes His message as the door of the sheep and all that came before Him; “the old covenant” as thieves and robbers.
John 10:7-8KJV Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
He also said;
John 10:10KJV The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
The old covenant does not offer us everlasting life nor does it offer us the promises of His teaching.
John 14:12KJV Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
John 10:11KJV I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
This is not a sacrifice: This is love.
Man believed in the sacrifice before man knew God as love.
John 10:15KJV As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
John 10:17-18KJV Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
Here Jesus emphasizes that His death and resurrection is an act of love. He also makes it clear that it’s a demonstration of His authority over death. An authority that He received from His Father.
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John T
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05/04/2011 17:52 |
Hi TR Word,
Respectfully... just a few thoughts.
Firstly, I just ran a search on the Bible -- the word evil is listed 490 times. A simple question -- why would God talk 490 times about something that doesn't exist? Belief doesn't make something true. If I choose not to believe in evil it will no more go away than if I choose not to believe in traffic and go for a stroll on the freeway. 490 cars would come after me pretty quickly.
Secondly, we've both been sidetracked. The poster of this thread did not ask about the so-called sin of believing in evil. They asked about whether God acts in natural disasters or has any role in them.
So naturally, let's look at whether God has power over the weather. Jesus calmed storms (Mar 4:29), God controls sunlight (Jos 10:13), God causes it not to rain or to rain (1Ki 17:1) are just three examples. So God clearly has power over the weather.
The next logical question would be to look and see if God ever uses weather as a judgment or withholds present things for his own purposes.
Thoughts on the logical process so far?
Blessings,
John
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TRWord
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05/05/2011 14:22 |
Hi John
You asked;
“ -- why would God talk 490 times about something that doesn't exist? Belief doesn't make something true.”
The question you haven’t asked yourself yet is; Why did God command Adam not to believe in good and evil? You also wonder why I raise this topic again and again. Well it’s in the hope that you may finally see it.
You said;
“The poster of this thread did not ask about the so-called sin of believing in evil.”
First you have to recognize that it’s not “the sin of believing in evil.”
It’s the belief in both “good and evil.” Adam and Eve looked at the world that God created and concluded that there was both “good and evil” but everything that God created was good.
HE SAID SO.
The serpent deceived man into thinking that there must be both good and evil because man trusted his senses instead of trusting God.
You said that belief doesn’t make something true but we sow through our beliefs and we reap what we sow. It’s impossible to read the Bible and not notice that we are subject to what we believe.
So here we are believing in both good and evil. The book of Job tells us what we fear the most shall befall us.
Job 3:25 For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me.
So here we are in fear of evil unaware that we are bringing it upon ourselves.
You also said;
“The next logical question would be to look and see if God ever uses weather as a judgment or withholds present things for his own purposes.”
This shows that you are led by your beliefs and not by what is written. If you were led by what is written you would be busy trying to find out how we sow to the wind instead of trying to see if God ever uses weather as a judgment.
Because it’ written; Hosea 8:7 For they have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind:
You would also be in a frantic search for the secret place of the most high;
Psalms 91:1 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
Because there we are totally under God’s protection.
Psalms 91:7 A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.
There no evil can come nigh thee.
Psalms 91:10 There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.
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John T
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05/05/2011 17:36 |
You still didn't answer my question. Why, if evil does not exist, does everyone, God, Paul, Job, etc, speak of it in the Bible?
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