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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
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John T
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05/05/2011 18:07 |
And to the others who may still be reading (those with lots of patience) -- is any of this making any sense? This conversation doesn't even seem logical.
TRWord - I'd like to ask you some plain questions, and I'd like it if you'd give me plain answers, not spinning in circles jargon.
1. Does evil exist? Explain.
2. Does sin exist? Explain.
3. Does God exist? Explain. One God or multiple? Do you believe in the trinity?
4. Did Jesus live a sinless life? Is that important? Is there a penalty to sin?
5. Are men sinful? Can a man do something that is evil?
Perhaps that will help me understand better what you are talking about.
Thanks!
John
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TRWord
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05/06/2011 04:51 |
Hi John
If this conversation doesn't even seem logical, and if all I have said to you is spinning in circles jargon. Then I’m sorry.
We have some rough times up ahead brother and I wish I could have shared what I see. Evil manifestations will soon over come the earth, and without a perfect understanding of God’s word man’s let without hope.
Matt. 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Matt. 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
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John T
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05/06/2011 07:01 |
"Evil manifestations will soon over come the earth, and without a perfect understanding of God’s word man’s let without hope."
What are these Evil manifestations?
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John T
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05/06/2011 10:47 |
Had a thought last night while listening to restored. It seems like what you believe about evil stands in opposition to a lot of things in this ministry - Restored deals with spiritual forces, John Eldridge speaks about the battle between good and evil often in all of his materials.
Another interesting thought I had today was that when I get home tonight I'll have to do a quick search of my E-sword computer bible. How many times are sin, evil, Satan, demons, angels, hell, etc, mentioned. If what you believe is true, and Satan only exists in our imaginations when we choose to believe that he does, then why would he be even mentioned in the Bible? I'm trying to understand how you came to your conclusions. Thanks! Be blessed, John
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Calico
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05/06/2011 11:27 |
Hey TRWord, my friend,
Yes, John's question seems fair and reasonable, of your statement "Evil manifestations will soon over come the earth, and without a perfect understanding of God’s word man’s let without hope," and I will add to it, respectfully, dear brothers, if I may:
The thinking-on I am currently considering is what would be called your major premise that "everything that God created was good. HE SAID SO," and how that creates a logical fallacy in what might be called your syllogism's conclusion of "The knowledge of 'good and evil' is the original sin." It seems that there is a missing mid-point from the syllogism, a mid-point that is commonly described as the minor premise (a premise which is usually offered as "is also true" to support the major premise that "is true," for the sake of drawing a conclusion that "may reasonably also be true").
What, if I may ask of you (along with John's above question), would be the linking premise between the initial premise of "everything that God created was good. HE SAID SO" and the conclusion of "The knowledge of 'good and evil' is the original sin."?
Grace and truth, friend,
Tom
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TRWord
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05/06/2011 15:27 |
Hi Tom
You asked;
What, if I may ask of you (along with John's above question), would be the linking premise between the initial premise of "everything that God created was good. HE SAID SO" and the conclusion of "The knowledge of 'good and evil' is the original sin."?
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Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Genesis 1:31 tells us plainly that everything God made was not just good it was very good.
(Genesis 3:5-7) For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
Are you aware of any sin before this. This is the original sin and notice how man was tempted into this sin; ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
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Ted C
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05/06/2011 16:16 |
TR, I know of something being "not good" (same word for good as in Genesis 1:31, "tove" - Strong's H2896) before Genesis 3:5-7. It's in Genesis 2:18 and it fits during the sixth creation day that happens between verses 23 and 31 of Genesis chapter 1.
Genesis 2:18: "Then the LORD God said, 'It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him.'"
Since something that was "not good" preceded the knowledge of good and evil found in Genesis 3:5-7, and evil itself in those verses simply means bad ("ra" - Strong's H7451), how could the "belief in the knowledge of good and evil" as you call it have been the original bad thing?
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TRWord
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05/07/2011 05:02 |
John wrote in another thread;
I was listening to a message today about the parable of the houses built on the sand and the rock. The interesting part is that the storms came for both! So there will be tough times whether we are in Christ or not. I thought that was a timely message. God allows storms at times.
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John this is the parable of the two houses one built on rock the other built on sand.
When you read it you’ll notice that the house built on rock; “it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.”
Matt. 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Matt. 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
Matt. 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
Matt. 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
Being right with God is our protection against evil in the earth. This is what we ask for when we pray;
Matt. 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil:
You do not realize;
1.... It’s not God that is sending the storm. Man is bring the storm on himself;
Hosea 8:7 For they have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind:
2..... God has promised that even though every house in your neighborhood have been blown away that yours will not be touched if you dwell in “the secret place of the most High.”
Psalms 91:1 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
Psalms 91:7 A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.
Psalms 91:8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.
Psalms 91:10 There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.
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Calico
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05/07/2011 09:11 |
Heya, TRWord, happy Saturday to you, my friend,
You had partially offered at the end of your post, "Are you aware of any sin before this?" Ah, yes yes YES, TRWord, so true! Thanks for saying that :-)
Still, where I had asked for "what, if I may ask of you (along with John's above question), would be the linking premise between the initial premise of "everything that God created was good. HE SAID SO" and the conclusion of "The knowledge of 'good and evil' is the original sin," I perhaps should have stated beforehand that I have also read the Genesis account (I had made the assumption that both you and I already had done,and have also made the assumption that these friends on the thread here have done). However, all in all it is fine to display the biblical data. :-)
Would it also be fine, my fried, to draw back to that question, then: what is the center link that might tie the needed thinking-on together that you are hoping to share with us, for the biblical data at hand that you have displayed for us? That link still seems to be missing, brother: ie. "everything that God created was good," (therefore) "the knowledge of 'good and evil' is the original sin." What your response above seems to do is take the two points of yours that I cited and offer them back to me unchanged, as well as not provide an answer. Without the answer; without the link; the syllogism still has a logical fallacy within it, and does not make complete sense for the offered conclusion.
Thus, to look with more focus at the biblical data which you partially cited, for the purposes of more fully displaying the data may I respectfully of that passage's greater context more fully so that it is on full display and not edited?
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Genesis 3:1 through 13 (Douay Rheims):
1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any of the beasts of the earth which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman: Why hath God commanded you, that you should not eat of every tree of paradise? 2 And the woman answered him, saying: Of the fruit of the trees that are in paradise we do eat: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of paradise, God hath commanded us that we should not eat; and that we should not touch it, lest perhaps we die. 4 And the serpent said to the woman: No, you shall not die the death. 5 For God doth know that in what day soever you shall eat thereof, your eyes shall be opened: and you shall be as Gods, knowing good and evil.
6 And the woman saw that the tree was good to eat, and fair to the eyes, and delightful to behold: and she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave to her husband, who did eat. 7 And the eyes of them both were opened: and when they perceived themselves to be naked, they sewed together fig leaves, and made themselves aprons. 8 And when they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in paradise at the afternoon air, Adam and his wife hid themselves from the face of the Lord God, amidst the trees of paradise.
9 And the Lord God called Adam, and said to him: Where art thou? 10 And he said: I heard thy voice in paradise; and I was afraid, because I was naked, and I hid myself.
11 And he said to him: And who hath told thee that thou wast naked, but that thou hast eaten of the tree whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldst not eat? 12 And Adam said: The woman, whom thou gavest me to be my companion, gave me of the tree, and I did eat. 13 And the Lord God said to the woman: Why hast thou done this? And she answered: The serpent deceived me, and I did eat.
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IS THERE a missing element/missing link/minor premise that can be found, somewhere between your Genesis 1:31 citing, and the full extent of the greater contextual content of the Genesis 3 citing?
The syllogism of the major premise that "everything that God created was good. HE SAID SO," and your conclusion of "the knowledge of 'good and evil' is the original sin" cannot logically carry through to the finality of your conclusion without your having the supporting minor premise, my friend.
Blessings to all, praying with you,
Tom
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Calico
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05/07/2011 09:56 |
Oh hi TRWord :-)
Of the post you'd just written of 05/07/2011 05:02 about storms (where John had said, if I may clarify apart from storms being "sent" by God but that storms are "allowed" by God), I would offer to all on this thread that my two posts from 05/02/2011 12:32 and from 05/02/2011 13:56 still stand as the most reasonable conclusions to the problem of natural evil.
Natural evil is different apart from moral evil. While both moral evil and natural evil both have victims, moral evil is causation - moral evil has an agent who will effect/affect a matter, moral evil has a being that perpetrates a violation. Natural evil has victims only and does not a perpetrate a matter. Natural evil is most commonly viewed as and accepted as the result of natural processes ("the planet itself 'post-Fall of Man';" see Romans 8:18 - 25). The "evil" that is cited therein is evil only as viewed by the persons affected by the natural event, and who come to experience it as an affliction, ie. "the corruption of something that was inherently good." There are a multitude of examples that exhibit natural evil; things such as cancer (the cells become corrupted), birth defects (the generational process becomes corrupted), tornadoes (weather corrupted from it's usual pattern), earthquakes (the degeneration of the earth), tsunamis (an affectation of the sea brought about by an earthquake), and other natural processes which cause suffering without any IMMEDIATE APPARENT ACCOMPANIMENT of alleviating good (in particular, please re-read the 05/02/2011 13:56 post).
Events of natural evil inflict "evil" on victims, but with no human perpetrator to blame for it.
To state that "man is bringing the storm on himself" as a part of the here-and-now timeframe is too generalized and too undetailed a way of referring to back to the Genesis 3:14 through 22 account. What that statement more sounds like is "the law of attraction" sorts of things that skews both good and evil (herein is "The Prosperity Gospel").
Thanks, going outside to rake the dead thatch from the forthcoming spring lawn. :-)
Praying with you,
Tom
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