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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
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TRWord
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05/07/2011 16:38 |
Hi Tom
My name is Christopher.
I think I see what you need. If I understand you correctly you would like me to show you a direct line of reasoning supported by scripture of course that shows that knowing good and evil was the original sin.
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And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. (Genesis 2:9KJV)
The account begins with man in paradise. WHY? Man is in paradise when he is in the presence of God.
Thou wilt show me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore. (Psalms 16:11KJV)
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And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. (Genesis 2:16-17KJV)
God commands man not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
The premise is that the two trees “the tree of life” and “the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” are the two choices man had, one led to life while the other led to death.
We can make this assertion because after man made the wrong choice of “the knowledge of good and evil” he lost the opportunity to eat of the tree of life which tells us that this was a clear case of either or.
So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. (Genesis 3:24KJV)
And notice man does not regain the opportunity to eat of the tree of life until the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Below Jesus is speaking:
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. (Revelation 2:7KJV)
* It’s also important to notice that man is commanded not to eat of of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil before the advent of “the help meet.”
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Now the help meet;
And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. (Genesis 2:18KJV)
The “help meet” has been erroneously interpreted as our female and this is responsible for much religious misconceptions including the belief that women are lesser vessels.
The help meet is not our female.
How do we know this?
1] So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. (Genesis 1:27KJV)
This tells us that man represents both male and female.
2] This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created. (Genesis 5:1-2KJV)
This tells us that the name Adam represents both male and female.
And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. (Genesis 2:21-23KJV)
Even with the clue that God took a rib from Adam to make the woman and no matter how much scripture is used to support that the woman is not our female some people still find it impossible to accept.
And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. (Genesis 2:23-24KJV)
They are one flesh, tells us that there isn’t two persons here. The woman is a part of Adam.
The two main figures in the account is the serpent and the woman; interpreting them correctly is absolutely necessary if we are to get a perfect understanding.
And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. (Genesis 2:25KJV)
This represents the absence of the belief in good and evil.
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Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? (Genesis 3:1KJV)
The Bible describe the serpent as subtle or difficult to analyze. And we know that there was no evil presence in paradise.
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And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.(Genesis 3:2-6KJV)
The conversation between woman and the serpent is the account of man being tempted into believing good and evil. The woman represents man’s new found ability to reason.
Man was suppose to trust God totally instead he trusted his senses. The serpent which defied his senses tempted him to conclude that both good and evil existed.
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And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. (Genesis 3:7KJV)
They knew they were naked means they now believe in good and evil.
And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. (Genesis 3:8KJV)
And they hid themselves from the presence of God. The belief in anything other than God translates into the belief in a presence other than God which is the original sin; the sin against the Holy spirit.
Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: (Mark 3:28-29KJV)
The Holy spirit represents the omnipresence of God.
Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. (Psalms 139:7-8KJV)
Q.E.D.
Christopher
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John T
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05/07/2011 21:06 |
Thanks Christopher - much appreciated and well written.
You lost me in the middle part about Adam and Eve.
This part:
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And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. (Genesis 2:21-23KJV)
Even with the clue that God took a rib from Adam to make the woman and no matter how much scripture is used to support that the woman is not our female some people still find it impossible to accept.
And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. (Genesis 2:23-24KJV)
They are one flesh, tells us that there isn’t two persons here. The woman is a part of Adam.
The two main figures in the account is the serpent and the woman; interpreting them correctly is absolutely necessary if we are to get a perfect understanding.
And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. (Genesis 2:25KJV)
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"And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man." It appears that God brought something "unto the man" here. If there is only one entity, what was it?
"Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh." This is described in the Bible as a picture of marriage. A man and his wife become one flesh - yet they are two entities, are they not? Help me understand how one flesh here means one entity and later in the Bible means two in marriage.
What about later in the new testament where it states that Eve ate first and then Adam - does that not describe two people eating the forbidden?
I had to read through this, then read through it again, then turn off all background music and read it again to try to follow you through from A to B -- help me see the connection.
Another question that came to mind is the apparent contradiction of the serpent. God states that if they eat they will die. The serpent states the opposite. Therefore either one or the other is mistaken or being untruthful, which would be not good. What's going on here? How could a serpent tell a lie in a perfect world if he was a part of that perfect world? Could the creation have been perfect and then an imperfect thing from outside it have come into it?
Thanks!
Blessings,
John
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John T
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05/10/2011 17:21 |
Long periods of silence...
Still out there Chris?
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TRWord
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05/11/2011 17:52 |
Hi John
You said;
“I had to read through this, then read through it again, then turn off all background music and read it again to try to follow you through from A to B -- help me see the connection.”
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The scripture is given to us in stories but there is always a much deeper message in the story. Here the story is a conversation between a woman and a serpent but the message is about deception.
The scripture tells us that Adam was not deceived. It’s the woman that is deceived. Man could not be deceived before the advent of the woman. The woman represents that part of man through which he is deceived.
1 Tim. 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the
transgression.
You are right;
“Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.” is a metaphor of marriage but it’s not used here to describe them as being married is used here to describe them as being bound into one. The man and the woman are one.
Similarly “And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.” is a metaphor of being innocent or without guile. The man and the woman were guileless.
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You asked;
“Another question that came to mind is the apparent contradiction of the serpent. God states that if they eat they will die. The serpent states the opposite. Therefore either one or the other is mistaken or being untruthful, which would be not good. What's going on here? How could a serpent tell a lie in a perfect world if he was a part of that perfect world? Could the creation have been perfect and then an imperfect thing from outside it have come into it?”
This is the actual deception. The serpent is the cause of the deception he is telling the woman the opposite to what God said. In other words the woman is receiving information through the serpent that is opposite to what God said. Now the woman should have trusted God and not the serpent. But she was also attracted to the tree “a tree to be desired to make one wise.” The desire to be wise is a major clue in helping us unveil the woman.
One in Christ.
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John T
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05/15/2011 19:28 |
Thanks Chris.
Ok, let me go along with that line of thought and understand where it goes. So Adam and Eve are one man, Adam the part of that man that was not deceived and Eve the part that was.
Where did their Children come from? Cain, Abel, Seth, daughters, sons, etc?
Where does man start being fruitful and multiplying in this all?
Thanks!
John
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TRWord
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05/17/2011 04:42 |
Hi John
You asked;
“Where did their Children come from? Cain, Abel, Seth, daughters, sons, etc?
Where does man start being fruitful and multiplying in this all?”
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The story of Cain and Abel is a continuation of the story of man’s fall.
As you study you’ll notice that “the generations of the heavens and of the earth” goes from Genesis 2:4 to Genesis 4:25.
The generations of the heavens and the earth is comprised of;
1] God formed man from the dust of the ground Genesis 2:7
2] The advent of the woman Genesis 2-18 to Genesis 2-28
3] The deception of the woman resulting in man’s separation from God. Genesis 3:1 to Genesis 3:24
4] The Story of Cain and Abel. Genesis 4:1 to Genesis 4:26 The story is of a murder but the message is the consequence of man fall and separation from God.
The generations of Adam begins: Genesis 5:1
Gen. 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
Gen. 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
You’ll notice that Cain and Abel are not mention in Adam’s genealogy.
One in Christ
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John T
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05/25/2011 20:52 |
Hi Christopher,
You mentioned that I'd notice that Cain and Abel are not part of Adam's genealogy. I was curious of this since I have always read the story of Cain and Abel being Adam's sons and Seth being another son.
Here is a verse from Genesis:
Gen 4:25 And Adam knew his wife again, and she bore a son and called his name Seth, for she said, "God has appointed for me another offspring instead of Abel, for Cain killed him."
Here it seems to show that Adam fathered Seth as well as Abel (it does not specifically assign Cain to that category, but that is the inference.). Abel is named as "offspring" and Seth as "son".
And what about:
Gen 4:1 Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, saying, "I have gotten a man with the help of the LORD."
This also calls into question the Adam being man and woman at the same time question. Eve is referenced as his wife here, and they are both shown to be Cain's parents.
Gen 4:2 And again, she bore his brother Abel. Now Abel was a keeper of sheep, and Cain a worker of the ground.
And here Eve bears his brother Abel.
How can they not be part of the genealogy. True, that they aren't in the line of Christ or Noah, but they are still sons.
Does that make sense?
Thanks!
John
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TRWord
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05/26/2011 16:06 |
Hi John
You said;
“This also calls into question the Adam being man and woman at the same time question. Eve is referenced as his wife here, and they are both shown to be Cain's parents.”
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The story of Adam and Eve here is presented as a conversation between a woman and a serpent. Now do you agree that the message is about man’s deception and his fall from grace.
Adam is not man and woman. Eve is a part of Adam, that part of Adam that was tempted by the desire for wisdom and was deceived by false information.
Gen. 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
John below Jesus is speaking to a Pharisee.
Matt. 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
Matt. 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Matt. 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Jesus told him that he should love God with his heart, his soul and all his mind. This tells you that this Pharisee is comprised of at least three parts; a heart, a soul and a mind.
Now if this Pharisee was deceived by false information which part of him would have been deceived.
One in Christ
Christopher
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John T
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05/26/2011 17:58 |
Thanks Christopher
"The story of Adam and Eve here is presented as a conversation between a woman and a serpent. Now do you agree that the message is about man’s deception and his fall from grace." -- Yes, definitely there is a fall from grace into sin happening here.
"Adam is not man and woman. Eve is a part of Adam, that part of Adam that was tempted by the desire for wisdom and was deceived by false information." -- Again, I still don't follow you in how an Adam containing Eve could bear offspring. Where did the children come from if there was not a separate woman Eve as in Gen 4:1 Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, saying, "I have gotten a man with the help of the LORD."
"Matt. 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Jesus told him that he should love God with his heart, his soul and all his mind. This tells you that this Pharisee is comprised of at least three parts; a heart, a soul and a mind." -- Yes, that is true, although I don't fully understand the difference between the heart and soul all the time, there is plenty of evidence showing that man is made in God's image and that there is a sort of trinity in us of the body, soul, spirit. As for which part was being deceived, at the minimum, his mind, but perhaps deeper.
Blessings,
John
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TRWord
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05/27/2011 09:16 |
Hi John
As you said; “there is a sort of trinity in us of the body, soul, spirit.”
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So we can therefore conclude that Adam is also comprised of these three parts; body, mind and spirit. Right!
You also said concerning the Pharisee; “As for which part was being deceived, at the minimum, his mind, but perhaps deeper.”
So again we can conclude that the part of Adam that was deceived was his mind.
Doesn’t this explains what Paul is saying here;
Rom. 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
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Now can we agree that Adam and Eve are not a man and a woman but two parts of Adam. And if so these would not have children but off spring because the story continues with Cain and Abel.
One in Christ
Christopher
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