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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion

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Craig from Illinois 10/31/2011 08:32
Yeah... I was confused. Sorry Ted and Ted C.
Ted 11/22/2011 20:26
Hi Davidwayne,
Sorry this post has taken so long. I threw my back out which eventually required shots. I just couldn’t concentrate.

Well, I referenced several sources about angels, fallen(evil) angels and the verses we’ve been discussing and this is what I’ve found.
--Firstly, angels are created beings.
(Colossians 1:16 NASB) For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.

--Everything that God creates is good and holy including the angels.
(Genesis 1:31-2:4 NASB) God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day. Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts [angels]. By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made. This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.

--Lucifer (aka. Satan, Adversary, Prince of demons) is described as a beautiful and powerful being who falls because of self-pride.
(Ezekiel 28:12-17 NASB) "Son of man, take up a lamentation over the king of Tyre and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "You had the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. "You were in Eden, the garden of God;Every precious stone was your covering: The ruby, the topaz and the diamond; The beryl, the onyx and the jasper; The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald; And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets, Was in you. On the day that you were created They were prepared. "You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire. "You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you. "By the abundance of your trade You were internally filled with violence, And you sinned; Therefore I have cast you as profane From the mountain of God. And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the stones of fire, "Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I put you before kings, That they may see you.

--Notice the prideful “I will” statements in the following Isaiah verses.
(Isaiah 14:12-15 NASB) "How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations! "But you said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north. 'I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.' "Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol, To the recesses of the pit.

--When Satan fell or more accurately was cast down, he took an army of rebellious angels with him.
(Revelation 12:9 NASB) And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

--From this we can conclude that Satan and his angels were created holy and chose to be contrary to God which makes them evil, corrupt and sinful. Fallen angels, being evil spirits, are also called demons. Demon or Daemon in the Greek simply means “evil spirit”.

Regarding 2Peter 2:4 & Jude 9, about fallen angels being chained up in pits of darkness, until the day of judgment. From the different commentaries I consulted, it seems that perhaps those verses can be taken both literally and figuratively. Some theologians say that there are some demons so vile that God has totally put them into “quarantine”. The rest of the demons are allowed to roam, ultimately under God’s authority to serve God’s purpose. Surely, both fallen angels and fallen man(2 Peter 2:9) exist under God’s judgment, therefore, in darkness and futility awaiting the final judgment.

In Christ's Love,
Ted

Davidwayne Lackey 12/04/2011 19:16
Ted, sorry about your back problems. I'll be praying for you.

I have been working a lot of long hour lately and have not had the time to respond. You raised a couple of things that are going to require some time for me to compose a response in a relatively intelligible way. Isaiah 14:12-15 is one of those places in Scripture where the translation is subject to correction. I'm not sure it belongs in this discussion but I need to review it before I say more on the subject.

So just to let you know I have not forgotten you I'm posting this and in a couple of days I will get back to you with a proper response along with the supporting Scripture and my thought process behind it. Well hopefully in a couple of days, sorry for the wait.
Lanny Carlson 12/05/2011 15:21
Yes, Davidwayne,
Isaiah 14:12-15 doesn't belong in this discussion,
"Lucifer" comes from "bright morning star," but doesn't refer to Satan
but to the prideful king.
John T 12/05/2011 18:54
That's arguable... many many times that reference has been used as Satan. Lucifer is another name for Satan.
Davidwayne Lackey 12/05/2011 22:04
The Hebrew word translated as Lucifer is Heilel. Heilel means to yell or howl, it does not mean Lucifer. Heilel is a verb not a noun so cannot be a name. Lucifer is a noun so it is in fact a bad translation.

Generally translated: Isa 14:12 "How you are fallen from heaven, O shining star(Lucifer in many translations), son of the morning!

Should actually read: "How you are fallen from Heaven, Howl son of the morning!

Son of the morning refers to either Jupiter or Venus depending on which planet is in position to shine as the morning star. A Hebraism and signifies that that bright star is, as it were the offspring (Son), of morning; or that it belongs to the morning. The word ‘son’ often thus denotes possession, or that one thing belongs to another. The same star in one place represents the Son of God himself; Rev_21:16 : ‘I am - the bright and morning star.’ Denoting how one shines in character and benevolent power. Satan was obviously not benevolent so this epithet could never belong to him.

The chapter talks about Belshazzar who was the last of the kings of Babylon. When you read further down the chapter tells how he was to die and what was to become of his nation and children. Definitely talking about a human being, not Satan. To ascribe any of these passages in the chapter to Satan is a large leap in logic and not supported by the language used.
Davidwayne Lackey 12/05/2011 22:09
Ted, I will get to the rest later. This side issue is something I felt needed to be addressed first. It is late and it's nap time for me.
Calico 12/05/2011 22:36
'Night, David, wherever you are on the road...

Hug,

:-)
Davidwayne Lackey 12/13/2011 21:53
Eze 28:12 "Son of man, sing this funeral song for the king of Tyre. Give him this message from the Sovereign LORD: "You were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and exquisite in beauty.


I'll start here with the beginning of the oracle given to Ezekiel, where God calls Ezekiel "Son of man" and tells him to sing this funeral song. I want to point out the poetic language used in this poem song. The first thing is "Son of man". It is the same phrase that Jesus used referring to himself. The message here is obviously directed at Ezekiel not Jesus so we can establish early on that the meanings of the phrases and all the words in this message must be interpreted within the overall context of the theme of the message. That is God telling Ezekiel to give this message to the King of Tyre and that it is a song with poetic licence. It is about a man, Ethbaal the King of Tyre, and his rise in grace and fall from grace.


" You were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and exquisite in beauty". This is an obvious allusion to the Kings upright character in the beginning of his reign. I say the beginning of his reign because of his wisdom which he had to acquire and was not born with it. I know this has been attributed to Satan but there is no real warrant for this reasoning and the Hebrew language does not support it.


Eze 28:13 You were in Eden, the garden of God. Your clothing was adorned with every precious stone—red carnelian, pale-green peridot, white moonstone, blue-green beryl, onyx, green jasper, blue lapis lazuli, turquoise, and emerald—all beautifully crafted for you and set in the finest gold. They were given to you on the day you were created.


Here we see God giving an analogy of the King of Tyre as he started out early in his rule over the kingdom of Tyre with Adam. Adam obviously did not actually wear rocks as adornment since he was naked and unashamed. So now we can know that this is poetic hyperbole extolling all the virtues that each of these stones represents denoting character traits the King of Tyre was adorned with from birth,(the day you were created), just as Adam was.

In the second chapter of Genesis is where Satan first appears as the tempter to Eve. It is obvious that Satan already had ill intent and was already evil in the garden of Eden so the stanza,(28:13), cannot be talking about him. It had to be talking about Adam.


Eze 28:14 I ordained and anointed you as the mighty angelic guardian. You had access to the holy mountain of God and walked among the stones of fire.


Having already established the reason why the stanza's in this prophesy did not talk about Satan there is only one interpretation of mighty angelic guardian that can be made here. Notice first that it says "as the mighty angelic guardian". The operative word here is "as", Not you were,(the Hebrew does not say were), a mighty angelic guardian but as a mighty angelic guardian. This is the verse that most who believe it talked about Satan use as proof.
There is nothing here in the language to back up that giant leap of logic. The stanza is talking about the King of Tyre as being ordained by God to be a fearless leader, righteously and benevolently defending and guarding the welfare of the people of the land. Standing in the way of invaders keeping the borders safe form intrusion like the Cherub with the flaming sword God put in place to keep all out of Eden after man was banished from there.


Eze 28:15 "You were blameless in all you did from the day you were created until the day evil was found in you.
Eze 28:16 Your rich commerce led you to violence, and you sinned. So I banished you in disgrace from the mountain of God. I expelled you, O mighty guardian, from your place among the stones of fire.
Eze 28:17 Your heart was filled with pride because of all your beauty. Your wisdom was corrupted by your love of splendor. So I threw you to the ground and exposed you to the curious gaze of kings.
Eze 28:18 You defiled your sanctuaries with your many sins and your dishonest trade. So I brought fire out from within you, and it consumed you. I reduced you to ashes on the ground in the sight of all who were watching.
Eze 28:19 All who knew you are appalled at your fate. You have come to a terrible end, and you will exist no more."


In these passages I want to point out the parts that lets us know without doubt that the King of Tyre is the one being talked about only. This is the part about what made his downfall.

Eze 28:16 Your rich commerce led you to violence, and you sinned.
Eze 28:18 You defiled your sanctuaries with your many sins and your dishonest trade.

These two passages are the key to understanding in context that there was no supernatural being discussed here. It is man that does commerce and trade. It is man that has sanctuaries, not Satan.

I'll have more on the timeline about when Satan and the fallen Angels were cast down and 2 Peter 2:4 later. It's been a full week for me and it's bed time.

In Christ Jesus, David

And thanks Tom, (Hugs).
Davidwayne Lackey 01/05/2012 01:00
Ted you wrote,
Everything that God creates is good and holy including the angels.
(Genesis 1:31-2:4 NASB) God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day. Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts [angels].


Ted, Before I get into the timeline of when Satan and the fallen Angels were cast down to the Earth there are a few things that first needs to be addressed. I'll start with Geneses 1:31-2:4.

Gen 1:31 Then God looked over all He had made, and He saw that it was very good! And evening passed and morning came, marking the sixth day.
Gen 2:1 So the creation of the heavens and the earth and everything in them was completed.

When you quoted Gen. 2:1 you put in parentheses angels. When in the Hebrew the word hosts (tseba-aw) pertains to both figurative and actual objects in mass. Like an army of soldiers organized for a war campaign, figuratively for an appointed time, for battle, for hardship, for worship, for company, for service, or for waiting upon. It is a picture of things that are, like the Earth and all the things put on it by God and the heavenly bodies like the moons and planets and the Sun, and the things that are to come since the word tseba-aw also points to the future that all these things are apointed to be used for. This does not necessarily refer to things that were before the reformation of the Heavens and the Earth, at least not all. The Hosts of Heaven when referring to the Angels could well have been made before the account in Geneses since the Hosts of Heaven referred to in Gen. 2:1 does not necessarily refer any thing other than the Sun, Planets, moons, etc.

To explain what I mean by reformation of the Heavens and the Earth and to come full circle back to Christian Newby's original question. The answer I had comes from the original Hebrew. Hebrew is a picture language and a Hebrew word usually means a lot more than the one word English translations can say. Like the meaning of the Hebrew word tseba-aw posted above shows with it's present and future connotations. For this we have to go back to the first 2 chapters of The Bible.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Gen 1:2 The earth was formless and empty, and darkness covered the deep waters. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.

In the first verse the word translated as created is in the Hebrew bara. Bara means to create supernaturally by taking a substance and transforming it into another substance. Like taking red ruddy earth and transforming it into flesh and bone. It never means to make from nothing. We know from the book of Job that God created everything from nothing but Genesis is not the account of that. So by this you can extrapolate that the Heavens and the Earth were reformed from their previous versions. The beginning of the second verse also establishes in the Hebrew that the Earth already was before God started the process of supernatural reformation. The reason you can extrapolate this is the very first word of the second verse which is And, in the Hebrew it the letter Vav and is a prefix to the first word which is a compound word meaning the Earth. The Vav in this case ties the first and second verses together in time and place so that there is no time gap between the first two verses.

The third thing that points to a previous existence of not only the Heavens and Earth but also to the previous existence of Evil. This is the Word darkness. In the Hebrew it is the word choshek. It means Literally dark with the conotations of misery, destruction, death, ignorance, sorrow, wickedness(darkness), night, obscurity. There is in the word a strong feeling of a malevolent Evil presents. This could very well be pointing to the Devil and the fallen Angels.
By these things you can now see why I have a problem with the time line in Rev. 12. There are many connotations in the original languages that don't jibe with the understandings taught by most main denominations of Rev.12. These things tell me that the time line is not linear as to when Satan and the fallen Angels were cast down to Earth.
More later, time for bed.
Yours in Christ Jesus, David.
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