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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
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Davidwayne Lackey
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10/15/2011 23:06 |
Ted, Angels are not always immaterial. Abraham fed the 3 Angels that showed up at his place real food and they ate. There are a couple of other instances where Angels ate but right off the top of my head I don't remember chapter and verse. Angels also grabbed Lot physically and an immaterial entity could not do that. However I do agree with you that Angels do not procreate. Especially fallen Angels since they are locked away and don't interact with humans till the end time.
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Davidwayne Lackey
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10/15/2011 23:09 |
I meant to say and they ate real food, oops.
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Ted
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10/16/2011 00:30 |
Hi Davidwayne!
It is only God's angels that can exercise the right to make themselves material by the will of the Father. Even in Hebrews 13:2 it says that we may have entertained angels unawares. So, they have the capacity to take on human form by the will of God.
No where in Scripture is it recorded that a fallen angel can manifest itself in physical form. There are instances however where evidence of it's evil destruction is evident such as in Mark 5. It's the story about the man who lived among the tombs of the Gerasenes and was possessed by a legion of demons. Jesus sent the demons into the herd of pigs and they ran downhill and drowned in the lake. Afterward, the formerly demon-possessed man was sitting in his right mind.
It's interesting that you mention the 3 men that met Abraham at Mamre (Genesis 18). Actually what it says is that it was the LORD Himself speaking with Abraham and bringing him the news of Sarah's pregnancy. This is called a "Theophony". Where God Himself appears in human form. Anyway, I would just have to say that God can do anything Himself or direct His angels to do God's will at anytime as long as it doesn't contradict God's Character. (Even eat curds, milk and beef!).
Peace in Christ to you and yours dear Brother!
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Davidwayne Lackey
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10/16/2011 22:57 |
Ted,
When it comes to the fallen Angels I agree with you that they do not manifest themselves in human form since they are locked away in chains.
I am a little puzzled about what you mean by quoting Mark 5. I'm not sure I understand fully what you mean by evidence of it's destruction. Do you mean the fallen Angels destruction? Mark 5 is about the casting out of Demons and the destruction of the pigs they were cast into and the restoration of the man that was possessed by those Demons. What puzzles me specifically is Demons are not fallen Angels, since they are locked away in a pit in chains, but are totally different entities of obviously supernatural order. So I'm not sure I get your meaning since you used the singular It's evil destruction instead of the plural their evil destruction. Did I miss something you meant to say? I can at times be rather linear.
Oh and thanks Brother Ted, I always enjoy your posts. Peace to you too.
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Ted
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10/19/2011 22:53 |
Hi Davidwayne,
I meant that fallen angels (or demons) cause evil destruction as in the destruction of the swine.
Demons and Fallen Angels are the same. When the Bible refers to fallen Angels beng cast down into a pit of hell and locked in chains, it means their fallen state of sinful gloominess and sad state of darkness in which they wait for their last judgement when they and the ungodly will be thrown into the "Lake of Fire". (Revelation Ch. 19&20). It does not refer to a literal state of being imprisoned in a pit in chains.
Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Peace, Ted
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Davidwayne Lackey
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10/20/2011 23:13 |
Ted before I get into this with you I will say up front I am glad you responded. You and I usually agree on most things. I know you are a decent theologian and I can think of no one better to discuss this topic with. So in the spirit of learning and sharing with you I would like to continue to discuss whether or not to take 2 Peter 2:4 and jude 1:6 literal or figuratively.
2Pe 2:4 For God did not spare even the angels who sinned. He threw them into hell, in gloomy pits of darkness, where they are being held until the day of judgment.
Jud 1:6 And I remind you of the angels who did not stay within the limits of authority God gave them but left the place where they belonged. God has kept them securely chained in prisons of darkness, waiting for the great day of judgment.
On the surface in context it seams to me that these 2 passages should be taken literally. Specifically that the fallen Angels are being held securely chained in prisons of darkness, also called gloomy pits of darkness, till the day of judgment. This judgment I understand will not happen until sometime after the millennial reign. You said these passages are to be taken figuratively because of what is written in Revelation 20 if I understand you correctly.
Rev 20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the bottomless pit and a heavy chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 He seized the dragon—that old serpent, who is the devil, Satan—and bound him in chains for a thousand years.
Rev 20:3 The angel threw him into the bottomless pit, which he then shut and locked so Satan could not deceive the nations anymore until the thousand years were finished. Afterward he must be released for a little while.
I immediately had a problem understanding your logic on what Rev.20 had to do with whether or not 2Pet 2:4 is literal or figurative. Rev.20 happens at the end of the tribulation period where Satan is locked up for a thousand years. So I assumed you meant Rev. 12.
Rev 12:3 Then I witnessed in heaven another significant event. I saw a large red dragon with seven heads and ten horns, with seven crowns on his heads.
Rev 12:4 His tail swept away one-third of the stars in the sky, and he threw them to the earth. He stood in front of the woman as she was about to give birth, ready to devour her baby as soon as it was born.
Rev 12:5 She gave birth to a son who was to rule all nations with an iron rod. And her child was snatched away from the dragon and was caught up to God and to His throne.
Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where God had prepared a place to care for her for 1,260 days.
Rev 12:7 Then there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon and his angels.
Rev 12:8 And the dragon lost the battle, and he and his angels were forced out of heaven.
Rev 12:9 This great dragon—the ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, the one deceiving the whole world—was thrown down to the earth with all his angels.
Rev 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice shouting across the heavens, "It has come at last—salvation and power and the Kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ. For the accuser of our brothers and sisters has been thrown down to earth—the one who accuses them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 And they have defeated him by the blood of the Lamb and by their testimony. And they did not love their lives so much that they were afraid to die.
Rev 12:12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens! And you who live in the heavens, rejoice! But terror will come on the earth and the sea, for the devil has come down to you in great anger, knowing that he has little time."
I have had a problem with this passage as well since it appears earlier in scripture that the fallen Angels were locked securely away till the day of judgment. In Rev. 12:9 it states that Satan and his Angels, and I take it to mean the fallen Angels, were thrown down to Earth. Then the following verses make it appear that this happened shortly after the resurrection of Jesus. At this point I can understand why you believe that the fallen Angels are the demons talked about except that there were demons cast out of people by Jesus and the Disciples before Jesus died on the Cross. It also means that the fallen Angels were not fallen before the Cross unless the timeline here is not linear. If the timeline in Rev. 12 is not linear then you can not conclude that the fallen Angels were not literally locked away securely in chains. In this case Rev. 12:9 gives the fact that the fallen Angels were cast down to Earth but whether or not free to roam around the Earth as destructive Demons was not given. This being the case it is still possible that the fallen Angels were locked away in the dark pits in bowels of the Earth securely till the day of judgment.
Also there are other passages that call for the belief that there are supernatural entities other than Angels.
Rom 8:38 And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God's love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow—not even the powers of hell can separate us from God's love.
Rom 8:39 No power in the sky above or in the earth below—indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Eph 6:11 Put on all of God's armor so that you will be able to stand firm against all strategies of the devil.
Eph 6:12 For we are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places.
Col 1:16 for through Him God created everything in the heavenly realms and on earth. He made the things we can see and the things we can't see—such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world. Everything was created through Him and for Him.
I would like to point out in these passages specifically Rom. 8:38 where it says neither Angels or Demons. If Angels were Demons why would Paul list both separately. Finally I cannot find anywhere in Scripture where it says or even alludes to Angels being Demons like there is for the Devil being Satan.
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Ted
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10/30/2011 20:06 |
Davidwayne,
I had written a lengthy response in regard to this topic, but it got lost into cyberspace. Sorry. I think that my account timed out in the middle of me typing away.
When i get my wind back, I'll post again.
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Craig from Illinois
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10/30/2011 21:24 |
Come on Ted! By now you should know to cut-n-paste from a word processor into the forums! It pains me to not know your original thoughts on this thread! I'm lurking on this thread and I'm finding it fascinating!
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Calico
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10/30/2011 22:12 |
"This is not the Ted you are looking for..."
Forgive my intrusion in the train of thought here, but I believe DavidWayne and Craig might be mistaking "Ted" for being "Ted C".
If there is actually no confusion about who's who, then I am the one who is mistaken, and I apologize.
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Ted C
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10/30/2011 22:35 |
Ted, I can't tell you how many times that has happened to me. Just the other day I spent 45 minutes compiling a scriptural response about how Jesus Himself indicates He's the sacrifice for sin, and it got wiped out right as I was finishing it up and getting ready to go to work. It's so crazy.
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