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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion

Struggling with doubts
This is the first year I have really sat down and began reading the Bible from start to finish. Although I have always gone to church, I find myself for, probably, the first time having these nagging doubts about whether its all true. I find myself questioning whether I believe Abraham, Moses etc really existed and find that this is beginning to have a knock on effect on my faith (itself only just recovering from a period of crisis over the last few years).

Has anyone else felt like this and how did you deal with it?

Thanks!
Isabel 02/28/2012 11:13

Replies: (page   1   2   3   4   5)
Ray 02/28/2012 13:30
Isabel,

A few years ago I hit a wall of trouble and it made me realize the trouble was based on my choices. I, also, realized my prayer life was absolutely self-oriented. Agnes Sanford (1897-1982), a real prayer warrior, gave the example of the light switch. If we walk into a room and flip the switch and the light does not come on, we do not say that all electricity in the world is gone. No, we check the light bulb. It is the same for our walk with God. If there is trouble in our walk, it is not that God has changed his love for us. No, the trouble is local.

Does your faith in the love of God really based on the historicity of the patriarchs? Probably not. They are examples of what it means to walk with Him, but it is your walk that is critical, or what you have influence in how it goes. He is here and knocking. Are you giving Him time to be another influence in you walk?

You might read this a think Ray is dumping on me. I'm not. I'm kind of amazed that any of us make it. We don't make based on our effort and knowledge. We make it because we ask Him to help and listen to how He responds. He will respond. He loves you so much.

Be willing to change things. Maybe there are things that need to change. Ask Him what He wants today and wait. He is faithful. Maybe don't walk alone in this. Find someone you can pray with to encourage you. Ask God who that might be. Ask Him to send someone. "We don't have because we don't ask." Sound familiar?

Seek to change your prayer life. It takes on many forms. It is probably a different journey for you than it was for me, but the question is the same. How do you pray? The answer is life changing.

One free resource that might help is here: http://www.dailyaudiobible.com/Groups/1000043434/Daily_Audio_Bible/Resources/Resources.aspx The Hope of Prayer audio stream talks about some aspects of prayer you may not have thought of. There are tons of other ways to change your prayer life. I'll be here if I can be of any help.

Fight for it,
Ray
GodB4Me 02/28/2012 13:37
Isabel, I am sure you are not alone in this. For me, being raised in a strict culture of Catholism, I found it disheartening that there were so many stories in the bible I never knew, be it in my unattentiveness in cathecism, or lack of the nuns putting emphasis on the stories, of the school of thought that it was more important to know, understand the doctrine, teachings, and laws of the church. I am not sure which one it was, but when you really listen and read these stories and realize that these people existed, and their stories are so powerful, filled with sin, faith, worship, redemption, miracles it is the greatest story ever told indeed.
Hang in there, the light will shine through... it has too
Your friend
Lisa
Lanny Carlson 02/28/2012 16:31
Isabel,

I share your concerns,
but my contribution would to be to suggest
that there is a difference in something being "true"
and something being "factual."

I hesitate to use the analogy, but it will help make my point.
Are "Aesop's Fables" "true?"
Not if we mean by that there really was
a tortoise and a harewho ran a race.
But the message - "slow and steady wins the race" - is most definitely TRUE.

Are Jesus' parables "true"?
Was there actually a man who built his house on sand
and another who built his house on a rock "true"?
Are the characters in the other parables real people?
Probably not. They were stories, not necessarily factual accounts.
But does that mean they weren't TRUE?
Absolutely not!

Are the creation stories in Genesis true?
Not if nearly all scientists are correct in not seeing them as literally true.
But is the message - that in beginning GOD created - true?
Absolutely!!!

I believe that Abraham and Moses were real people,
though their stories were handed down by word of mouth
and the all details may not be factually "true"
But does that mean that the message conveyed through them is untrue?
I think not!

The image of God in much of the Old Testament is problematic for many of us, too.
And I'm having a very difficult time listening to Leviticus right now.
But I suspect the words of those books in the Old Testament
are probably a true picture of the culture and the level of understanding
at the time they were written.
But as Christians, we read the Old Testament in the light of the New,
in light of the God revealed in Jesus.
How do we deal with those differences?
Well, I like the words of Biblical scholar William Barclay,
"God has always been like Jesus....
We may well ask,
'What then about some of the things that we read in the Old Testament?
What about the passages that speak about commandments of God
to wipe out whole cities and to destroy men, women and children?
What about the anger and the destructiveness and the jealousy of God
that we sometimes read of in the older parts of Scripture?'
The answer is this - it is not God who has changed;
it is men's knowledge of him that has changed.
Men wrote these things because they did not know any better;
that was the stage which their knowledge of God had reached...
It was only when Jesus came that they saw fully and completely
what God has always been like."
[The Daily Study Bible Series:The Gospel of John, Vol. 1, p. 38)

The question you raiases is, Is the Bible all true?
Not if we read it as a book of science,
or a book of history,
or even a book of settled theology.
But "Yes," if we see it as a book about faith in progress
(and aren't we all works in progress, with a faith in progress?)
which reaches it's climax in the story of God's self-revelation
through the life and teachings of Jesus.

This is my perspective, anyway,
and I hope this is helpful.
Craig from Illinois 02/28/2012 16:56

I read "The Case For Christ" by Lee Strobel.
Ray 02/29/2012 09:35
Isabel,

I'm praying for you as I see myself in your words. "This is the first year I have really sat down and began reading the Bible." Why do you find yourself here? Why did you make the decision to read the book cover to cover? If we are similar, it is because you need help. You need to be filled and the world is, at best, a big fat liar that leaves you empty. Did me, anyway.

"I have always gone to church," yeah, I did that. Those structures can be empty shells as well. They are only alive when the Spirit of God is present. It's dead if it is human effort. Churches can turn into a form instead of the substance they were meant to be growing within us. Rom 8: 5 "Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires." Church can be in the flesh which is human effort and ability and faith in those things. But if the mind of the fellowship is set on the Spirit, it is an amazing place to be. Same for you as an individual.

"recovering from a period of crisis" Yep, I don't know your crisis, and there are some horrible stories here. My latest hit was loosing a 33 year old friend to cancer. I know life in this world is a war. If we are tricked into thinking that the pains are directed at you from God, why wouldn't you doubt His love. It's such a lie. The world is fallen and we are behind enemy lines. That's not a comfortable place to be. But you have purpose in the fight as long as you don't surrender. Ephesians 6:12 "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."


"find myself questioning whether I believe Abraham, Moses etc really existed" As in the Romans passage above, what is you mind set on? There are a thousand and one questions just like that one. Was Moses a real person? Your enemy is waiting to throw the next one at you, rest assured. John 10:10 "The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full." Who are you looking to? There is one who is alive and loving you today, but you are free to look in any direction you will. You need to know that the book points to the real thing that can fill you. He is right with you always. You have to seek Him. The seeking is one of the ways He chooses to work His good stuff into you. The dead people of the past are only pointers to how your life can be today as you walk in the Spirit.

I love this description of our state. It shows just how loving our Hero really is:

Satan already has the upper hand. he took our hearts captive when we fell, back in Eden. Some he has snared through abuse, some through seduction, others by means of religion. Oh, how hard it is to rescue the human heart, to dislodge people from their chosen means of survival without toppling them into resignation, despair, or defensiveness. Jesus
won't take the shortcut of a power play. He doesn't force anyone to follow him. He seems rather reluctant to do his miracles. He never overwhelms anyone with a fantastic display of his majesty. He woos, he confronts, he delivers, he heals, he shoots straight, and then heuses intrigue. He lives out before them the most compelling view of God, shows them an incredibly attractive holiness while shattering the religious glaze. But still, he lets them walk away if they choose. Now, Satan has an ace up his sleeve even if his captives want out of the POW camp, he has a legal claim to them. A claim that can be broken only by blood. These prisoners can be ransomed, but only at a terrible price. It
appears the evil one doesn't understand Jesus' next move. He seesan opportunity to finish what he started back in the massacre of the innocents. The authorities grab Jesus at night, bring him in under false charges, bribe witnesses, then get a weary, cynical Roman puppet to execute him because the mob is about to riot. Jesus seems to have
run out of options, lost his ability to maneuver. Yet this plays right into his plan-his secret plot to overthrow the rule of the evil one on earth. Apparently, Satan did not know that by sacrificing Jesus he would pull the one pin that would crumble his entire kingdom, fall into the very scheme God the Father had carefully, ever so carefully arranged for the undoing of evil: We speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory (1 Cor. 2:7-8).

Eldredge, John (2011-10-12). Beautiful Outlaw: Experiencing the Playful, Disruptive, Extravagant Personality of Jesus (pp. 103-104).

Lots of people have come here and written things like you have written. Sometimes they just write these things and disappear. I often wonder if they are misstating the case, they say they are doubting when if fact they have already jumped ship. Maybe they are fighting and a different front takes their attention, but doubt is a fight. It says you are important to the kingdom of God. What are you doing in the fight?

Isabel 02/29/2012 15:26
Thanks for all of your comments which have been really encouraging and I will take the time to read and consider them more fully over the next few days.
Ted C 03/02/2012 02:14
Lanny, you wrote: "The question you raiase is, Is the Bible all true? Not if we read it as a book of science, or a book of history, or even a book of settled theology." Those are the very doubts Isabel is struggling with. I say that the faith you place in evolution - a theory - and in secular histories attested to by handfuls of manuscripts with thousands of years of transmission times and in liberal theology which has existed for less that two centuries takes more faith to believe in, not less, that the truth of the Bible. You believe the speed of light has always been constant but the moon must have really sped up in it's orbital decay the past few million years. You believe in disconformities and unconformities layered in any way needed to explain the fossil strata - bending interpretation of the data to the theory instead of the other way around. You believe the 25,000 extant manuscripts of the New Testament with a transmission of - in one case - as little as 25 years are inaccurate, but boy we should give a lot of heed to the idea of early blood cults. You believe that the amount of radioactive material in the earth has been constant. You're making a whole lot of assumptions based on a scientific establishment who's textbooks are laughably out of step with theory within 50 years in almost all cases. You have to believe in punctuated equilibria because boy we can't find many transitional fossils. If you want to pedal doubt based on popular theory, why not question some of the theories you are espousing themselves? As far as liberal theology, it's mythos. It's the idea of a God who is unknowable or incapable of making Himself known.

Well, they overcame the enemy by the Blood of the Lamb, by the Word of their Testimony, and by loving not their lives even when faced with death.

I too struggle with doubt sometimes. But then I think of how tenuous every other position and theory is, and how illogical it would be to embrace a theology that somehow self-exists apart from it's founder, or to have to place faith in a dead universe filled with and ending in death. I've got to tell you - neither of those options makes sense to me. If Jesus did not die for our sins, then either A) man has no sin problem, or B) man can overcome sin problems himself by doing a, b, c, d... etc. And I'll tell you man DOES have a sin problem and man CANNOT overcome it himself.

I leave you with the Gospel, that God so loved the world He gave His only begotton Son that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. If that was not true - if Jesus did not literally die on the cross for our sins, and rise again conquering death - there would be no power in Christianity and in the Gospel. People certainly don't follow Jesus because it's convenient. Or because it makes sense like - I'm being a fool to write like this - like evolution and enlightenment theory do. They don't follow Jesus because it feels good all or even most of the time. People believe the Gospel story and follow Jesus because they've met Him and they know in their hearts that it's true. That's it. If it was not true there would be no power. Christianity - true Christianity, not the umbrella concept liberal theologians try to apply to everything from blood cults to the Jesus Seminar - would have died out within a month of the crucifixion if Jesus had not literally risen from the dead and appeared to hundreds of men, men who were willing to be stoned, crucified upside-down, boiled in oil, and live penniless while preaching, forsaking families and homes. The reason I still believe in Jesus when I go through periods of doubt is - frankly - because it just makes more sense that any other alternative. And I've met Jesus. He's Real. Every one of us will have to give an account to Him at the final judgment. And woe to any one of us if we have led anyone astray from Him.
Lanny Carlson 03/02/2012 08:56
Ted C,

I appreciate your taking time to respond,
and the effort you put into trying to support your theory.
But in doing so, you use some of the same methodology
of which you accuse me.
It is young-earth creations who begin with their conclusion
and tries to twist the facts to fit their theory.

"You believe the speed of light has always been constant."
Creationists have to assume that it isn't, in order to make their conclusion work.
"You believe that the amount of radioactive material in the earth has been constant." Some "creationists go so far as to say that we believe the decay of radiocarbon must be constant, again having to assume that it isn't, in order to make the young earth creation story fit.
But what that really says is that God is a deceiver -
that he only makes thing appear to be older than they are;
at the same time, it makes God unreliable, because he constantly violates his own natural laws, which makes science (even the pseudo-science of creationism) utterly impossible. We say God is revealed in creation, but how we can trust anything we see in nature if God is always changing or violating his own natural laws?
Creationism pretends to be "scientific," but in fact it begins with the assumption that the Bible must be accepted literally, and then twists science to fit its pre-conceived conclusions. That is NOT science.
And it's these kinds of things which makes non-Christians take Christianity less seriously.

St. Augustine recognized that centuries ago,saying,

"Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience.

"Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking non-sense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn.

"The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of the faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men.

"If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason?

"Reckless and incompetent expounders of holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although “they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion.”

If Augustine was right 1600 years ago,
how much more accurate his words are today.
Young-earth creationism HURTS the task of evangelism,
insisting that people have to believe ridiculous things
in order to accept the Gospel.
We shouldn't be surprised the when so many simply turn away.





Ray 03/02/2012 16:35
Love you, Isabel. I'm praying for your time of discovery. It is good to explore with Him. He can take you to wonderful places.
Saint Grogan 03/03/2012 04:04
Hi Lanny,

You said that the stories of Abraham and Moses were handed down by word of mouth and that they may not be factually “true”. Where did you get that from?
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