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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
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Lanny Carlson
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03/04/2012 14:48 |
Isabel,
Again I'm sorry for any comments I've made here that missed the point.
These forums do get far afield sometimes!
I hope my first post (I believe it was the third response to your initial post)
was relevant, and that you have found the discussion helpful.
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Ted C
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03/04/2012 15:36 |
OK, put it another way. Lanny, do you deny that you believe a large part of Leviticus, Deuteronomy and other portions of the entire Pentateuch are probably the mere teachings of men passed down by inaccurate oral accounts some time after men evolved from being Cro-Magnon man and before the Divided Kingdoms period of Israel and Judah? Please be entirely honest here. If you do, then you believe it was a fascinating fantasy concocted by illiterate post-Cro-Magnon men who in turn had evolved from apes. Just say it. There's nothing to be ashamed of here. If that's what you believe, say it loud and proud.
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Tom B
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03/04/2012 20:22 |
Isabelle,
Thanks for staying on task, so to speak.
We all have moments of doubt. The Bible is full of stories of human doubt. And God stays faithful to us--even when we struggle.
Two things have particularly helped me in my journey to stay in relationship and close to God: 1. Reading snd reading the Bible each day; 2. Praying and listening.
I know I am making this sound too simplistic. I am very simple--for good and for bad. But as Brian Hardin says so well, "Welcome to the adventure of a lifetime." I pray that God will bless you as you study Scripture. And I pray that you will be a blessing to your community. I pray that you will be enriched and strengthened and supported in this rich community.
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Craig from Illinois
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03/04/2012 21:13 |
Ted - you're slipped up again on the personal attack towards Lanny. You're trying to paint a picture of him that's a "theme park charactature", not a portrait.
I'll say it loud and proud. I'm not confident that I fully understand the techniques and traditions of an ancient culture that produced the Old Testament books, especially Genesis. Prior to having pen & page, how can we fully grasp the age where our Yahweh was verbally speaking to Moses, writing on tablets of stone and traveling in cloud and fire over the chosen people? To assume that we can comprehend what it was like and how it was done is fairly arrogant.
I don't go down that road of doubt that lead to full blown agnosticism. I have found much truth in the Bible to be too critical of it's origin. It's apparent to me that the weakest link of the truth is not the Bible, but me.
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Lanny Carlson
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03/04/2012 21:23 |
Ted,
I'm not at all sure how this relates to Isabel's questions,
and you use such loaded language that I am feeling manipulated,
like you're wanting to get me neatly into as box
so you can tell me once again how wrong I am.
If I'm misreading you, I apologize,
but that's the tone I'm sensing.
"Mere teachings of men"?
No, I have a higher doctrine of man than that.
I believe we were created with minds to think and hearts to feel
and spirits within to connect us to the Spirit of the Divine.
The insights of the creation story in Genesis 1 are profound.
God is our Creator.
The spirit of the divine dwells within us.
God calls us to live faithfully
in our relationship to one another and to the rest of creation.
I DON'T call these "mere teachings" but divine insights,
divine revelation if you will.
"Inaccurate oral accounts?"
Yes, of course there are "inaccuracies",
if you insist that people living thousands of years ago
could possibly understand modern geography and history and science.
A few thousand years from now,
people will probably look at our present level of understanding
and conclude that some of our knowledge is inaccurate.
I can't imagine that we will ever reach a level of perfect knowledge.
The Scriptures themselves tell us that!
But I'm not going to suggest that the Bible is nothing more
than "a fascinating fantasy concocted" by our ancestors.
That's a loaded phrase, and I think you know it.
And that's being entirely honest!
(By the way, the Cro-Magnons are thought to be the earliest modern humans,
early homo sapiens sapiens, not a separate species.
Nor did Cro-Magnons "evolve from apes."
It is believed that we have a common ancestry.
The present thinking is summarized quite well in this statement:
"If humans evolved from apes then why are there still apes?
Humans did not evolve from present-day apes. Rather, humans and apes share a common ancestor that gave rise to both. This common ancestor, although not identical to modern apes, was almost certainly more apelike than humanlike in appearance and behavior. At some point -- scientists estimate that between 5 and 8 million years ago -- this species diverged into two distinct lineages, one of which were the hominids, or humanlike species, and the other ultimately evolved into the African great ape species living today."
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/faq/cat03.html )
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Again, Isabel, I apologize that your thread seems to have been hijacked.
I suppose I could just ignore the questions addressed to me,
but then I would be accused of avoiding the questions!
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Craig from Illinois
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03/04/2012 21:29 |
Grogan,
Are you saying a few comments up that you don't accept the idea that our modern scriptures were once part of an oral tradition passed down from generation to generation? Where did you get that idea?
Marcie - Sometimes a person will post an original thread topic that generates a wider discussion near the general topic. I don't think an evolving discussion necessarily means that it's high-jacked. It just is being "fleshed out" with probing questions and comments.
High-jacking would be more like me adding a comment on how I find it disturbing that Tom (Calico) posts a lot of photo's of his cat on Facebook!
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Ted C
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03/05/2012 00:32 |
Lanny, I'm sorry the caricature sounds harsh but you confirm much of it. You think man evolved from microbes on a beach. You think man has divinity in himself, and I hazard to guess you think all of creation has elements of divinity inherent in it. I hazard to guess you don't think God relates to man through the literal Blood sacrifice of Jesus as payment for our sins. The reason I come down so hard on you is because liberal theologians are the reason major denominations are being divided, the sin of open homosexual behavior is welcomed and even sanctioned behind the pulpit, young students full of zeal are seduced away from true faith in Christ by fine sounding arguments, and people are led into sin by thinking it doesn't really exist or doesn't really matter. Liberal theology is not Christianity at all but is purely and only enlightenment humanism married to mysticism. Of course my heart inwardly burns when you counsel someone who is struggling in their faith by telling them, "Is the Bible all true? Not if we read it as a book of science, or a book of history, or even a book of settled theology..." The truth is that you are not a Christian in the sense of putting your faith in Christ that you may be saved from sins and redeemed to God. You don't believe Jesus died for your sin personally, or that his literal blood sacrifice on your behalf is the only way to your redemption. I'll repeat what I posted on another thread and add to it. This will be my final post on the subject. I really don't wish you ill at all. I wish for you conviction, repentance and a turning to a true faith in Christ for salvation, that you would believe the Word of God and be covered by the Blood of Christ.
1 Corinthians 15:1-8
"Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also."
Galatians 1:8,9
"But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!"
2 Timothy 3:5-16
"...holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these....always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of depraved mind, rejected in regard to the faith....You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them....All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness..."
Jude 1 (the entire book)
"Jude, a bond-servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are the called, beloved in God the Father, and kept for Jesus Christ: May mercy and peace and love be multiplied to you. Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints. For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe. And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day, just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire. Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties. But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, 'The Lord rebuke you!' But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed. Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah. These are the men who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever. It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, 'Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.' These are grumblers, finding fault, following after their own lusts; they speak arrogantly, flattering people for the sake of gaining an advantage. But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, that they were saying to you, 'In the last time there will be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts.' These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit. But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life. And have mercy on some, who are doubting; save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh. Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen."
Isaiah 53:4-6
"Surely our griefs He Himself bore, and our sorrows He carried; yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, and by His scourging we are healed. All of us like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; but the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him."
Hebrews 9:22-26
"And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself."
Luke 24:44-49
"Now He said to them, 'These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.' Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, and He said to them, 'Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things. And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.'"
Matthew 26:26,27
"While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, 'Take, eat; this is My body.' And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, 'Drink from it, all of you; for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.'"
Romans 10:5-11
"For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: 'DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, "WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?" (that is, to bring Christ down), or "WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).' But what does it say? 'THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART'—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. For the Scripture says, 'WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.'”
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Saint Grogan
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03/05/2012 03:11 |
Craig,
I gave Lanny a few Scripture verses that support my assertion. 2 Timothy 3:16 says:
“ALL SCRIPTURE is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,” (2 Timothy 3:16)
ALL SCRIPTURE IS GIVEN BY GOD and not passed down from generation to generation. The next verse I gave was 2 Peter 1:21 which reads:
“FOR NO PROPHESY WAS EVER PRODUCED BY MAN, but men spoke from God as THEY WERE CARRIED ALONG BY THE HOLY SPIRIT” (2 Peter 1:21)
Peter is talking about the divine origin of Scripture. The writers of the Old and New Testaments were inspired to write what was given to them by the Holy Spirit of God. They were controlled by God’s Spirit.
Now Craig, Please show me where Scripture was passed down by oral tradition.
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Lanny Carlson
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03/05/2012 08:23 |
Ted,
It saddens me to learn that I read your tone correctly.
You got me where you wanted me
so you could say in effect
that I'm not a Christian because I don't agree with you
and you have it right.
So much for avoiding personal attacks!
I could say so much more,
but I'll leave it at that.
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Lanny Carlson
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03/05/2012 08:27 |
This really needs to be taken to heart!
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/407402_10150645727595948_646935947_10958497_1820920376_n.jpg
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