|
|
Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
| |
Catholica
|
06/27/2012 11:10 |
Thanks, Craig and Tom, for your input. It seems that there are less and less people around the forum these days, so it's hard to get a good discussion going.
I don't want to go into "exposition" mode yet just because I'm interested in hearing people's insights. I figure that there is a lot in the Bible about freedom and that we should bring it in, and especially also the verses conserving the opposite of freedom, which is slavery, but even that word "slavery" needs to be looked at in terms of true freedom.
I saw the three things that you are reading/listening to Craig, and at one time or another I've also read/listened to those things. What ties it all together for me is what I see as a paradox of freedom, which is Jesus himself.
If we look at Jesus' life, I believe that we see the image of freedom, and I believe that the purpose of that freedom was to love as Jesus loved.
The irony is that Jesus' whole life was to do not his own will but rather the will of the Father. It is ironic because our human idea of freedom seems to be that we are able to do whatever we want, that is, to do our own will.
Similar to Craig's insight, it was Jesus who was most keenly aware of the Love of the Father. And considering Tom's insight, it is Jesus who is the source of hope, who most keenly imaged true hope. And the purpose of Jesus' life was love, and He is the image of what real love is, what love means. So in short I believe that freedom is actually what amounts to a "good" form of slavery: a slavery to the will of God, and in that form of "slavery" we are freed from the bonds of sin and self-love, and that in that obedience we paradoxically find true freedom. And the purpose of that freedom, the way it pans out in our lives, is that we become a total self-gift for the good of others, just like Jesus did on the cross.
I'm going to dig deeper, but I'd love to hear people's thoughts. My own thoughts were inspired by a certain sermon and a certain amount of thought on my own, and tied together with my devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus.
Here is the sermon:
http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20120617-The-More-Selflessly-We-Love-the-More-We-Are-Loved.html
Readings that go along with it:
Eph 3:8-12, 14-19
----
[8]To me, the least of all the saints, is given this grace, to preach among the Gentiles, the unsearchable riches of Christ, [9] And to enlighten all men, that they may see what is the dispensation of the mystery which hath been hidden from eternity in God, who created all things: [10] That the manifold wisdom of God may be made known to the principalities and powers in heavenly places through the church,
[11] According to the eternal purpose, which he made, in Christ Jesus our Lord: [12] In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him. [14] For this cause I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, [15] Of whom all paternity in heaven and earth is named, [16] That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened by his Spirit with might unto the inward man, [17] That Christ may dwell by faith in your hearts; that being rooted and founded in charity, [18] You may be able to comprehend, with all the saints, what is the breadth, and length, and height, and depth: [19] To know also the charity of Christ, which surpasseth all knowledge, that you may be filled unto all the fulness of God.
----
John 19:31-37
----
[31] Then the Jews, (because it was the parasceve,) that the bodies might not remain on the cross on the sabbath day, (for that was a great sabbath day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. [32] The soldiers therefore came; and they broke the legs of the first, and of the other that was crucified with him. [33] But after they were come to Jesus, when they saw that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. [34] But one of the soldiers with a spear opened his side, and immediately there came out blood and water. [35] And he that saw it, hath given testimony, and his testimony is true. And he knoweth that he saith true; that you also may believe. [36] For these things were done, that the scripture might be fulfilled: You shall not break a bone of him. [37] And again another scripture saith: They shall look on him whom they pierced.
----
|
| |
Catholica
|
06/28/2012 09:40 |
Wow, so I found another really good podcast with regard to what true freedom is.
http://wordonfire.org/WOF-Radio/Sermons/Sermon-Archive-for-2010/Sermon-494-Elisha-and-the-Nature-of-True-Freedom.aspx
Fr. Barron speaks a lot about attachments. I wish he would have went just one step further, and that is our attachment not only to worldly goods and honor but also to sin. Take a listen! And he comes to the same conclusion, that the purpose of freedom is that we are free to love, which is pretty much where I was at in the last post.
|
| |
Kelley
|
06/28/2012 18:17 |
I have been caught in the tension between a longing for security and a longing for freedom since I was a teenager. I have a niece who is working the Colorado fires right now who just blows me away with her sense of adventure, bravery and zest for life. She is the free-est person I know and she lives with the code of being able to fit everything she owns/needs into a canvas duffle bag. This has been much easier since the invention of the Kindle! lol! because she loves to read as well. She works hard, is very physically fit, takes classes on line a bit at a time and has gone to amazing places and sends home photos worthy of National Geographic. She lives fully the "less is more" philosophy that must have urged nuns a monks forward into their vows of poverty. I am in a life upheaval right now, where I am having to make the choice, leave all I know behind, the security that binds me fast in this prison for the freedom of poverty and launching myself fully into God all the way. I don't know how I'm going to live. I only know that what I've done so far isn't living at all. So this isn't Biblically deep, but I suppose in the reality of my daily road... the only place security and freedom meet is in Christ and it doesn't look anything like what I ever expected. I'm gonna go listen to your two sermons you posted now! :)
|
| |
Bibleman
|
06/28/2012 22:45 |
How? I am free to be open to myself about what I am facing when I am in prayer and when I am living a life that gives acknowledgement first and foremost to Christ.
Now, I'm not an excellent example, maybe, but I just figured I'd put my two cents in!
|
| |
Craig from Illinois
|
06/29/2012 07:35 |
Kelley, you may remember a famous Francis Chan quote from a sermon and now part of the "Basic" video series. He felt that God was telling him to give away ALL of the profits from the sales he received for "Crazy Love". He said in response to his (well meaning) critiques, "What is the worst thing that could happen for giving away the money?"
His point is explained in the next few paragraphs, but the main point is an obvious one. Can there ever been disappointment with launching fully into God?
I suppose that one needs to "launch fully" properly. Jesus talked about counting the costs. In another situation, most everyone else in the crowed turned away from following Jesus. When Jesus asked his disciples if they want to leave too, Peter says "where else will we go?"
That's a pretty good question, and sobering. Where else will we go, Kelly?
Obviously I don't know you, your history or what you are considering very well. I'm just encouraging you to greatly consider to live fully as God has intended. You're not going to be criticized or be called foolish for giving up what you have collected in material possessions by me. But our DAB community may be the only place of encouragement you will find. What does that tell you?
|
| |
Craig from Illinois
|
06/29/2012 16:15 |
And "Happy Birthday", Andre!
|
| |
Catholica
|
06/29/2012 16:17 |
Is there a happy birthday alert around here? :^) Thanks!!
|
| |
Craig from Illinois
|
06/29/2012 21:07 |
So it seems that Father Barron has correctly identified my initial response to Andre's question as a "modern view of freedom". That is... "freedom from external constraints so that I am free for self-expression". The external constraint that I am sought freedom from are my Christian traditions. My self-expression is to explore the variety of Christian beliefs and enjoy them.
Andre asked, "what is true freedom?" Fr. Barron identified Biblical freedom as "the freedom from attachment so as to find freedom to do the will of God." He goes on to note that the purpose of Biblical freedom is NOT for self-discovery or self-expression but rather to discover the will of God.
So, I'm going to change my answer. As I write, my hope is to encourage Kelley and "Bibleman" aka James to seek this Biblical freedom that Fr. Barron talked about. Kelley already knows this story, but I'm not sure about Andre and James.
About 18 months ago, my wife and I started taking steps to free ourselves of what we called "anchors of life". My wife was aware in her spirit months prior that something was going to shift in our perspective on life. It did around the Fall of 2010. We set a goal to begin the process of selling a majority of our personal possessions including our house over the next 12 months. We also made changes in our employment schedules. All this and with no idea where it will lead. Our house closed on the one year anniversary that initial decision.
The things we thought were a means to freedom (house, belongings, employment) were blocking our freedom to do the will of God. By the Spring/Summer of 2011 we were free enough to accept a fairly unique arrangement at a Christian boarding school for teenage boys. The arrangement allows us to give our time away to the school in exchange for free housing and some meals. But what is really happening is that we have the opportunity to set examples of love and build relationships with young boys who disparately need to know and experience the love of Jesus in their lives.
Some days it's a sobering fact that we are living in a state of freedom from attachment. Loosing faith in God equates to becoming anxious about tomorrow. It may be that this place gets shut down some day. Or there may be some other opportunity that God calls us to enter into. In any case, our attachments are few. I have to admit that most of the time it feels REALLY GOOD to not have (as many ) attachments as we did 18 months ago. But like I said, some days I wonder into an attitude of anxiousness. Then something like this thread or a podcast reminds me of what is really going on.
My story is relatively (very) shallow when comparing it to the Biblical freedom stories Fr. Barron gave in his message. I also know that we haven't had to sell ALL our possession to gain some sense of freedom from attachments. At least not yet anyway. Anyhow, it's my story and I hope you can gain some confidence from it.
|
| |
Kelley
|
06/30/2012 01:54 |
Andre, I've been listening to several of the "Word on Fire" talks. They are very good. Still contemplating the freedom question. I've got a lot out of what everyone has shared here too. I don't know that giving everything up is automatically freedom producing. It just depends on what God has put inside you to do. I have been in bondage of a job that literally kept me imprisoned. I couldn't leave. I made money and had my needs met but had NO freedom to come and go. I am extricating myself and am frightened. I know what God has put on my heart to do, which will mean probably poverty, but in that poverty is the freedom to let loose what God has given. For another person, with a different task given by God might find poverty restricting in fulfilling their "commission." This makes it sound like it's all about task and duty, but I am not meaning it that way. It's that wonderful passion that He puts inside us that in the living of it out makes us come fully alive. What is life to the full if not freedom? What is freedom if not fully living the life we were created for. Mine seems to, at least for now, demand poverty in order to have the freedom time wise that I need to do what I've been given to do. I love seeing people who live that out. It can look a thousand different ways, but when you see it, you see joy.
|
| |
Catholica
|
06/30/2012 10:54 |
Craig, you have a neat story, and Kelley, I'm glad you like the podcasts. IMO Fr. Barron is excellent.
I don't have much time to write, but I think that a certain distinction should be made. Only some are called to actually give up everything, and I agree with Kelley that it depends on what God has put inside us to do. What Fr. Barron was saying is that it is the _attachment_ to things that we all need to be free of. Things in themselves are not bad, but we have to be willing to give those things up IF God calls us to do it.
For example, I don't feel called to live the life that Craig lives, or like a hermit. I have 3 kids and they have needs as well. I need to keep working and maintain a certain amount of things around that we need to make it through. For example, we homeschool, so we need a lot of homeschool things. But we don't own a new TV, or a fancy car, or a really nice house, or a big lawnmower, or fancy clothes. It would be wrong for me to give up homeschool supplies including the computer, or our beds and at least one car at this time in my life. Not to say that that might not change later. And if the economy gets torched and I have to give a lot of that stuff up, I'd like to believe that I'd still be happy to do so. When the whole world is running around rioting because of austerity measures, I can imagine maintaining joy even with the lack of "stuff".
Still I think this teaching is one of the more challenging aspects of the gospel for people in America and other countries whose cultures have started to revolve around "having stuff", yet it is a blessed way of life that can really helps demonstrate and grow our faith, and I know that having that freedom both leads to joy and helps us fulfill God's plan on Earth.
And there is more than just stuff that we have to give up an attachment to. The harder things are things like human respect. Now THAT is a challenge. I think we all probably have something we are attached to, and it might be sin, or food, or power, or recognition. I don't know. But I do know that we were created for freedom, and Christ wants to make us free indeed! So somehow He is going to help us become free, really free.
When I started the thread, I didn't even think about the 4th of July or the ruling of the Supreme Court, the first which is a celebration of "freedom" and the second which, depending on how you look at it, might turn into a violation of true freedom, but that's another story.
|
(page
1
2)
|
