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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
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Ray
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12/24/2012 17:22 |
So, the interaction presented in the wilderness is all in the mind of Jesus? It just "represents" something that took place in his mind and is in essence our thought processes that we are responsible for generating? It's up to us by the use our mind and the information we have to overcome the thoughts?
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TRWord
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12/26/2012 05:44 |
Jesus was tempted exactly the way we are, through His thoughts, and He is teaching us here, (Luke 4:1-13) how to use the word of God to dispel these thoughts.
Ray this is also an example of the danger of interpreting the scripture by the letter. Interpreted by the letter you saw this as a conversation between Jesus and the devil. When you interpret the scripture through the truth and by the spirit you gain a totally different understanding.
2 Cor. 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
2 Cor. 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
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Catholica
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12/26/2012 09:44 |
Aren't you interpreting Paul's statement about the letter and the spirit according to the letter?
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Ray
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12/26/2012 21:12 |
So, the resistance Jesus met from Legion in Mark 5 is only "his thoughts" or the words are only figurative? Prayer is not really needed as Eldredge has encouraged and as Jesus spoke in Mark 9:28. We just need to obey the right rule set in our minds.
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TRWord
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12/27/2012 04:02 |
Ray did Jesus command us to resist not evil__ Yes or No? This is the question, and are you willing to obey His commandment or are you instead more interested in searching the scripture for situations that seem to be saying that Jesus contradicted Himself. You have to decide whether to believe or not.
Jesus healed both physical and mental illnesses. Mark 5:1-19 Jesus is healing a man that is mentally ill. You probably know this, but even today there are still some cultures that consider the mentally ill to be possessed by evil spirits.
Because you interpret by the letter, you see this as a discussion between Jesus and a host of evil spirits and you miss that after the man was healed he is described as being in his right mind.
Mark 5:15 And they come to Jesus, and see him that was possessed with the devil, and had the legion, sitting, and clothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid.
About Mark 9:29 and prayer:
A man took his mentally ill son to the disciples but they could not heal him.
Mark 9:18 And wheresoever he taketh him, he teareth him: and he foameth, and gnasheth with his teeth, and pineth away: and I spake to thy disciples that they should cast him out; and they could not.
After Jesus had healed him the disciples asked Jesus why they couldn’t.
Here He’s telling His disciples to get to the level where they can perform this healing takes prayer and fasting.
Mark 9:29 And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting.
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Ray
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12/27/2012 21:00 |
"did Jesus command us?" Jesus is alive, Chris. He didn't walk here years ago to bring a new set of rules. That will never work for us as we have proved over and over again. 'Why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules? . . . Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom . . . but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.' (Col. 2:20,23)
'At the first religious convention in history, Moses trotted down the mountain with stone tablets in hand. He read everything aloud to the people of Israel. The Israelites signed on the dotted line, saying, “We will do everything” (Ex 24:7). But the convention was a bust. The old covenant story is one of broken promise after broken promise to God. Heaven wasn’t taken by surprise. God never intended Israel (or anyone!) to be able to keep the law. The law wasn’t designed to bring success. No, the law came into the picture so that sin would increase (Rom 5:20), not decrease. Heaven wanted earth to see that, apart from divine intervention, there was no real hope. Then, at the appointed time, the powers of heaven ushered in a new covenant that put God’s faithfulness to himself on display: “since He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself” (Heb 6:13 NASB). God swore to himself that Jesus would be our priest forever (7:21–22). He promised that he would never leave us nor forsake us (13:5). He promised to be faithful to himself. He became our guarantor of a better covenant (7:22). Here’s what God himself says about this new covenant: “It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors . . . because they did not remain faithful to my covenant. . . . I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people” (Heb 8:9–10). Did you notice what the new covenant is all about? It’s about heaven’s solution to our faithlessness. It’s about God rigging everything by placing Christ’s desires in our hearts and minds. It’s about God’s commitment to be our God forever. Here, God is the initiator. All we can do is respond with belief and a “thank you.”'
Farley, Andrew (2012-04-01). Heaven Is Now: Awakening Your Five Spiritual Senses to the Wonders of Grace (Kindle Locations 205-222). Baker Book Group. Kindle Edition.
To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’ “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.” Luke 18
A rule- or law-driven self-improvement program is not the way to growth. We grow just as we were saved. We grow in personal relationship with Jesus Christ. He is enough.
Farley, Andrew (2012-04-01). Heaven Is Now: Awakening Your Five Spiritual Senses to the Wonders of Grace (Kindle Locations 320-321). Baker Book Group. Kindle Edition.
"He’s telling His disciples to get to the level" A truly old covenant view of our situation.
No, he's showing that the struggle is real and we should to draw on our only source of strength...he is enough, he is alive, and he is wonderful!
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TRWord
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12/28/2012 16:10 |
Ray I asked you a simple question; Did Jesus command us to resist not evil__ Yes or No?
It’s a simple yes or no question.
I read your reply and I don’t know what you are talking about.
“A rule- or law-driven self-improvement program is not the way to growth.”
How did that enter the discussion?
“Farley, Andrew (2012-04-01). Heaven Is Now: Awakening Your Five Spiritual Senses to the Wonders of Grace (Kindle Locations 320-321). Baker Book Group. Kindle Edition.”
What this has to do with what we were talking about?
To remind you what the discussion was; you were using Mark 5:1-19 to support your belief that Jesus spoke to, and resisted evil spirits.
And I’m saying Jesus would never contradict Himself or disobey His Father.
The Father commanded Adam not to believe in good and evil and by extension commanded us as well.
Since Adam disobeyed and brought the consequence of that belief on all of us, Jesus Christ came to show us “the way” out.
He commanded us to resist not evil, to forgive seventy times seven and to even love our enemies.
Why?
Matt. 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Now you are suggesting that Jesus gave us no commands.
Don’t these verses contradict what you are saying.
Jesus speaking:
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
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Ray
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12/28/2012 22:32 |
Chris,
You have done the your evil/tree routine here ad nauseam for years. I really didn't want to go there yet again. Try to walk with Jesus today, not yesterday. Not by some religion. Jesus spells the end of religion. He spells the beginning of life in the spirit. He is creative beyond our imagination. Lam 3:22 'Because of the Lord’s great love we are not consumed, for his compassions never fail. 23 They are new every morning; ...'
What I wrote in response to your evil/tree entry point above, I believe, with all my heart, is the message Jesus would have you hear TODAY. I asked him. Give it a few moments. Consider with respect to your life REALLY. Don't have a preconceived agenda or objective. Crossing over to the new covenant isn't easy. We have to really let him be our everything. Most people try to keep commands. The reason we do that is we doubt. We feel like we have to do something to make us look good.
'They insult the law by thinking they can obey it or by merely cherry-picking portions of it to obey. This dishonors the law. We only truly respect the perfection of the law when we opt out of it entirely, recognizing our need for God’s grace.'
Farley, Andrew (2012-04-01). Heaven Is Now: Awakening Your Five Spiritual Senses to the Wonders of Grace (Kindle Locations 308-310). Baker Book Group. Kindle Edition.
Loopholes and work-arounds— this is the only way any of us can possibly claim that adhering to the law is a real possibility. Whether it’s the dietary restrictions or the wardrobe regulations or, in this case, one of the Ten Commandments [I assume considering evil as real in your religion is counter on one of them - Ray], we humans can’t actually keep the law. We can fabricate the appearance of doing so, but living under the law inevitably yields defeat if you’re honest or hypocrisy if you’re not. And this comes as no shock to the God who makes us to die to the law (Gal. 2: 19) so that we might genuinely live for him!
Farley, Andrew (2012-04-01). Heaven Is Now: Awakening Your Five Spiritual Senses to the Wonders of Grace (Kindle Locations 362-366). Baker Book Group. Kindle Edition.
Yes, Jesus gave all sorts of commands. How about this one. "If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away." How many eyeballs do you have in your sockets? Think about it. Did he really want you to become a cripple to earn you way into heaven? Or did you have something else all together for us?
Evil? I think you are right to some extent. There is no power there. 1 Cor 15:25 'For Christ must rule until God defeats all enemies and puts them under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be defeated will be death.' But I believe the struggle is real and so is the freedom Christ established for us. John 10:10 'The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.'
Let him rule today, not yesterday. Not via some religious way. Let him rule your now. Ask him to do it. Grant him access by casting off the rules.
Grace to all.
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TRWord
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12/29/2012 08:05 |
I'm still perplexed at where all this came from by just asking you a simple question. But anyway let's just leave it there.
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Davidwayne Lackey
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01/04/2013 23:41 |
TRW,
Jesus did not say do not resist evil in the context that you have presented. What He said was do not resist an evil person.
Jesus went on to give the circumstance under which we are not to resist an evil person and bring shame on the evil person, to prick the evil person's conscience by no longer responding in the way of the old Mosaic law.
What Ray said is correct. Jesus was not talking about evil per say but how to respond to evil intent by another under the New Covenant. The Old Covenant was an eye for an eye which did not change the offenders heart or prick the offenders conscience by strict rules under the Mosaic law. Instead Jesus upgraded the Law by teaching us to deal with these circumstances with humble grace that pricks the conscience of the persecutor and through the conscience change the evil doer for the better. In other words to change a hardened heart to a soft and responsive heart through grace.
Mat 5:38 "You have heard the law that says the punishment must match the injury: 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.'
Mat 5:39 But I say, do not resist an evil person! If someone slaps you on the right cheek, offer the other cheek also.
Mat 5:40 If you are sued in court and your shirt is taken from you, give your coat, too.
Mat 5:41 If a soldier demands that you carry his gear for a mile, carry it two miles.
Mat 5:42 Give to those who ask, and don't turn away from those who want to borrow.
Mat 5:43 "You have heard the law that says, 'Love your neighbor' and hate your enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say, love your enemies! [Bless those who curse you. Do good to those who hate you.] Pray for those who persecute you!
Mat 5:45 In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For He gives His sunlight to both the evil and the good, and He sends rain on the just and the unjust alike.
Mat 5:46 If you love only those who love you, what reward is there for that? Even corrupt tax collectors do that much.
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